The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied

[MarkT]

A_Clay_Man,
Tour-18 in Houston, who's design is "18 of the greatest holes in golf" was sued by several courses, including Augusta. The courses lost their law suit and if I remember correctly, the ruling was something like 98%. Maybe someone remembers the exact number the courts said but I remember it being a pretty high number.

[Garland Bayley]

Anyone want to make their list, or update your previous list?

[Jim Colton]

I dunno, but how old was JNC Lyon when he started on here?

[Garland Bayley]

I haven't had a lot of time to spend on this the last couple of days, but here's my first team:

Par 3's:
short:  16th Royal Melbourne (East)
medium:  11th St. Andrews
m-long:  4th National Golf Links
long:  3rd Rolling Rock

Par 4's:
short:  10th Riviera
     12th St. Andrews
     7th High Pointe
medium:  16th St. Andrews
     5th San Francisco Golf Club
     6th Royal Melbourne (West)
long:  10th Highlands CC (N.C.)
     18th Phila. Cricket Club
     13th Pine Valley
     2nd Lost Dunes

Par 5's:
short:  9th Royal North Devon
     8th Royal West Norfolk
medium:  16th Shinnecock Hills
long:  10th Pinehurst No. 2

There are a lot of holes mentioned above which I would like to include, but I don't think it's very feasible to think you could place them on a nondescript site.  The 8th at Crystal Downs is fantastic, but where are you going to find another piece of land like THAT?

Maybe a good question is, has Tom used any of these for a template for the first time in the last 8 years since he posted this list?

[Kevin Lynch]

I dunno, but how old was JNC Lyon when he started on here?

I think most of the hole numbers he cited were > his age in 2004. 

[Gib_Papazian]

Sea Headrig through the Alps.

Any questions?

[Mac Plumart]

I definitely think 15 at North Berwick is good enough to be copied.

Really cool hole.

[Garland Bayley]

I definitely think 15 at North Berwick is good enough to be copied.

Really cool hole.

That may be the one that Tom has copied the most.

[Will Lozier]

Interesting thread.
One hole that I never thought would make anybody's list finally showed up, the 18th at TOC.
We all have our own visions of what constitutes greatness, but my perception of the 18th is that it is the worst finishing hole ever in championship golf.
The drive is into the middle of wide open field.  You can hit anything off the tee.   The further you play toward the first "fairway" the better angle into the green and there is nothing to avoid in doing so.   The only thing you have to do is not hit it out of bounds right.
The green is surrounded on 2 sides by OB stakes.  Now that is clever.  LOL  and a deep grass swale in the front.   The green is sloping from right to left, but that is all there is to it.
I drive and a wedge.  If a good player EVER makes any score higher than par, he has really messed up.
Without the clever name of the grass hollow and the location downtown St. Andrews, what does this hole offer.   It it even a worse finishing hole than CP, imho.

Wrong on so many levels.  The further left, the more one must deal with the VoS.  The fact that there is width and choices off the tee are positives.  And...CPC's 18th is completely unique to that course which gives is, like TOC's 18th validity and interest.  Full disclosure - have not played TOC but have played CPC. 

Cheers

[Kyle Harris]

I dunno, but how old was JNC Lyon when he started on here?

No idea, probably 15 and he hasn't aged a day since!

[Mac Plumart]

Could 6 at Pac Dunes be copied?

[Garland Bayley]

Could 6 at Pac Dunes be copied?

To quote Tom's comment about the 8th hole at Crystal Downs, "where are you going to find another piece of land like THAT?"

Copying 16 might be considerably easier.

[Scott Warren]

That's the first thing I noticed when I opened the thread, Jim! And some great hole choices. At 14yo I'd have chosen 18 at Valhalla!

Kyle, Kevin: I re-watched Superbad the other night. It was nice to see John again!

[Cristian]

Woking 4 (par 4), or is this in part a copy of the principles of TOC 16?

El Saler 8 (Short par 4 with a fairway horseshoeing around wasteland on the left and a dune to the right side of the green, which slopes right to left viciously). The Dune could be copied with a hump, making approaches from the right extremely difficult.

Dornoch 14 (Though Dornoch's linksland is pretty special, I am convinced the principles of this hole could be copied fairly easily on any sandy site.) Amazed that it has not been mentioned!

Ballybunion 6

Stoke Park 7

[Mark Chaplin]

.

[Sean_A]

A first shot at this without looking above.

Par 3s:

#11 Pennard - maybe a bit of a cheat because of the valley - could use #6 Painswick as well for the same concept, but carrried out very differently at the greensite
Redan - no brainer
#17 Swinley - a cool volcano hole
Postage Stamp - no briainer - could use #8 at Burnham's Channel Course if anybody knew the hole


Par 4s

9 Beau Desert - Excellent example of a drivable knob to knob hole
13 Stoneham - superb green for a drivable hole
[b]Sea Headrig [/b]- misoriented green which is a stroke of genius
Foxy - no brainer
#16 TOC -  no brainer
#17 TOC - no brainer
16 North Berwick - awesome green
3 Woking - one bunker directs play from tee to green
3 Huntercombe - harsh sloping green - could use Merion #5 as well, but I like the hollow for the drive better at H
6 Ballybunion - great green site and interesting drive

Tough to leave out Painswick's 11th, but like Rye's 4th, its a unique bit of land

Par 5s

#4 Pennard - disorienting hole finishing in a great green
#16 Deal
16 Addington - excellent shot shaper's hole with a huge reward if its pulled off
5 Strandhill - a bit of a cheat with the land, but my what an awesome par 5

Tough to leave out Sunny New #6, but I reckon its a good example of a very standard type hole.

Ciao

[Mac Plumart]

Could 6 at Pac Dunes be copied?

To quote Tom's comment about the 8th hole at Crystal Downs, "where are you going to find another piece of land like THAT?"

Wanna break the hole down to its essential elements?  That might be fun.

Rather than the plateaued green, I'd start with the extraordinarily wide angles of approach and small, thin, angled green.  This kind of baffled my mind the first time I played it regarding how to attack it.  Almost too many options for my brain to process.

Thoughts?

[Eric Smith]

Sea Headrig through the Alps.

Holy merde, what a stretch of fun and imaginative golf! Copy away, right down to the tee boxes...

[Garland Bayley]

Could 6 at Pac Dunes be copied?

To quote Tom's comment about the 8th hole at Crystal Downs, "where are you going to find another piece of land like THAT?"

Wanna break the hole down to its essential elements?  That might be fun.

Rather than the plateaued green, I'd start with the extraordinarily wide angles of approach and small, thin, angled green.  This kind of baffled my mind the first time I played it regarding how to attack it.  Almost too many options for my brain to process.

Thoughts?

If that's your template, I don't think you have to search as far as Pac Dunes to find an example. I think you have to include the plateaued green to make a meaningful template. Perhaps you don't have to have such an extreme plateau.

[Mac Plumart]

Could 6 at Pac Dunes be copied?

To quote Tom's comment about the 8th hole at Crystal Downs, "where are you going to find another piece of land like THAT?"

Wanna break the hole down to its essential elements?  That might be fun.

Rather than the plateaued green, I'd start with the extraordinarily wide angles of approach and small, thin, angled green.  This kind of baffled my mind the first time I played it regarding how to attack it.  Almost too many options for my brain to process.

Thoughts?

If that's your template, I don't think you have to search as far as Pac Dunes to find an example. I think you have to include the plateaued green to make a meaningful template. Perhaps you don't have to have such an extreme plateau.

Yes, I agree.  I think there needs to a plateued green of some sorts and I do think it needs to be part of the template.  And I didn't mean to dismiss that aspect of the hole.  Rather, I didn't want to start the converstation there...that was my point.

But when you do get to the green, I think the nasty hazard short left is a key element.  As are the angle of the green, and the drop offs.

Any other key aspects of the hole?

Any other holes we can discuss as template possibilities...and break them down to their key components?  I think this is kinda fun.  Also educational.

[Garland Bayley]

Could 6 at Pac Dunes be copied?

To quote Tom's comment about the 8th hole at Crystal Downs, "where are you going to find another piece of land like THAT?"

Wanna break the hole down to its essential elements?  That might be fun.

Rather than the plateaued green, I'd start with the extraordinarily wide angles of approach and small, thin, angled green.  This kind of baffled my mind the first time I played it regarding how to attack it.  Almost too many options for my brain to process.

Thoughts?

If that's your template, I don't think you have to search as far as Pac Dunes to find an example. I think you have to include the plateaued green to make a meaningful template. Perhaps you don't have to have such an extreme plateau.

Yes, I agree.  I think there needs to a plateued green of some sorts and I do think it needs to be part of the template.  And I didn't mean to dismiss that aspect of the hole.  Rather, I didn't want to start the converstation there...that was my point.

But when you do get to the green, I think the nasty hazard short left is a key element.  As are the angle of the green, and the drop offs.

Any other key aspects of the hole?

Any other holes we can discuss as template possibilities...and break them down to their key components?  I think this is kinda fun.  Also educational.

That nasty hazard left means where do you find land like that? However, you might be able to find a narrow plateau for a green that would complete a template not strictly tied to this hole. The severe elevation change on this hole seems to me means it would seldom be copied.

Which gets me back to 16. Isn't it somewhat the same template, but one you can find more easily. Long narrow angled green between two "hazards", but in this case approach is downhill.

[Mac Plumart]

Let me check out 16 in more detail, Garland.  I think you have a point.

But, also, let me know on this.  For a template to be a template, we don't need to mimic it completey.  Rather we need its key elements.  I saw this a lot at Yeamans Hall.  With this mind frame, for the 6th hole template...dig a bunker, deep and nasty, on the front left.  Use that sand/dirt, to build up the green plateau at that angle...and BOOM!...you've captured the greenside elements.  No?

[Garland Bayley]

Let me check out 16 in more detail, Garland.  I think you have a point.

But, also, let me know on this.  For a template to be a template, we don't need to mimic it completey.  Rather we need its key elements.  I saw this a lot at Yeamans Hall.  With this mind frame, for the 6th hole template...dig a bunker, deep and nasty, on the front left.  Use that sand/dirt, to build up the green plateau at that angle...and BOOM!...you've captured the greenside elements.  No?

You may have captured greenside elements, but you won't have captured the strategy of the hole. I may do things differently than others, but I drive out to the left on 6 and take the huge bunker straight on. Since the elevation difference is so immense, my approach is not far from its apex when it lands, and therefore has little speed to kill with spin or whatever. All I have to do is get the distance right. If I get the direction right, the bonus is birdie. If I don't get the distance right, double bogey, but then that's why I often sign posts ...


Double Bogey

[Mac Plumart]

Great point!



Bunker short right in the fairway is important, as well, don't you think?

[Garland Bayley]

Great point!



Bunker short right in the fairway is important, as well, don't you think?

As Tilly would have us know, the important hazards are at the green. I think this green site makes makes the template. Other hazards are less important. Bunker on right side of fairway means little to this cut shot hitting lefty.