[Robin_Hiseman]

Most British golfers complain like crazy if the walk from green to tee is any further than 30 yards (which is about as far as most of them can hit the ball), but from my limited experience of cart golf it seems to me that their availability means that the architect no longer has to even attempt to make the layout fit together in some sort of flowing sequence.

Is this a good thing because it reduces the need to impose a layout on the land, or a bad thing because it reduces the course to a series of design compartments, rather than the continous flow of most of the classics?

My nomination is for the trek between two of the nines at Stone Mountain, Atlanta - a mile at least I guess.  Any advances?

[A_Clay_Man]

With a few exceptions, the longer the distance, the more disjointed a course can feel. However, if the walk is limited to once or twice, and is of such natural beauty, the time and distance will only enhance the round. Most obvious i.e. is the walk from 15 to 16 at the Sistine chapel(Cypress Pt.)

Other long rides and walks that come to mind is on The Woodlands course at (where else) Lawsonia.

[A.G._Crockett]

I think I remember one at Troon North Pinnacle in Scottsdale that, in addition to going through part of a neighborhood completely detached from the course, required a guide to meet each group and lead them to the next tee.

[Mike Benham]

How about Wente Vineyards, at least for vertical consideration ... (btw this is one of those topics that is non-GCA and I am only posting because I can ...)

This view is from the 10th tee, looking southwest and that is the 9th fairway below.



Speaking of strong finishing par-4 holes, the 18th here is a very challenging split fairway par-4 of more than 450 from the tips ... the green complex is rather plain ...

http://www.wentegolf.com/hole18.htm

[THuckaby2]

Mr. Benham:

I can proudly say that I have walked up that path from 9 to 10 at Wente - just got sick of waiting for our ride to show up, one time with some die-hard walkers known to this site (who will go nameless now to protect their reputations.

Damn right re 18 being a great closer also...

Now re longest cart rides, I submit:

5 to 6 at Kapalua Plantation - good lord that must be over a mile.

not sure of the numbers, but from the green of the downhill driveable par 4 to a drop shot par 3 at Moorpark CC in SoCal - Matt Ward knows it - this drive along made the course classified as unwalkable.

Oh man, there are many others - too many.

TH

[Dan Kelly]

Jeff Brauer probably can quantify the length -- but there's one cart ride on the back 9 at Giants Ridge (Legend) that, if I'm not mistaken, begins in one time zone and ends in another.

No fault of Mr. Brauer's. Environmental necessity, as I understand it.

Remember: This is the place where someone was concerned about fish being killed by balls entering the water hazard at the 17th hole. See http://www.giantsridge.com/courses/legend/tour/17/

[Joel_Stewart]

A few that I can remember are Cascata in Las Vegas.  I believe this course is completely unwalkable and a few rides are close to a mile in distance.

Also the Dragon at Gold Mountain in California has a half mile ride between the green on the first and the 2nd tee.

[Tim_Weiman]

Robin Hiseman,

I find your comments about British golfers offensive. GCA has a serious problem being too USA centric with participation by Europeans woefully inadequate. Comments like yours only make the problem worse.

If you are going to post here, clean up your act.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Tidewater in Myrtle Beach.  ALthough no elevation change so it is an easy walk.  There are a couple that are quite long.

As the crow flies you are not far from the next tee, but it is across a road that you cannot cross or even get to to cross.  By the time you circle back to the cross over and back it has to be 3/4 mile.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I have played most of the courses mentioned and sadly none of them compare to Silvertip (near Banff - site of this summer's GCA outing). There is one ride that you are in the cart for such a long period, they have signs of encouragement - I am not joking! Signs such as "You are getting there" or "almost there", rather discouraging overall.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Then of course there is that long cart ride at Sand Hills from the clubhouse to the first tee.  Whereupon you can park your cart and emark on one of the better walks you will ever take.  Only to find your cart after for that long commute back to "civilization" if you can call the "base camp" that.

[CHrisB]

Robin Hiseman,

I find your comments about British golfers offensive. GCA has a serious problem being too USA centric with participation by Europeans woefully inadequate. Comments like yours only make the problem worse.

If you are going to post here, clean up your act.

Tim,
Did you make these comments knowing that Robin Hiseman is (1) British, and (2) a practicing golf course architect? Sounds just like the kind of person you have been trying to get to participate here. Just trying to get a context on your complaints...

My home course (Great Hills CC in Austin) has some long walks between holes at the end of the round, as if the designer stood on the 15th green and asked "How am I going to get back to the clubhouse in just 3 holes?" The walk from 16 to 17 is an odyssey, rivaling the trek from #12 to 13 at Cape Breton Highlands (but not as scenic).

[David_Tepper]

The longest walk (although I do think they allow carts now) I have ever come across is on the back nine of Stanley Thompson's Highland Golf Links, Cape Breton, Canada. I think it is between the 13th & 14th holes. It is a very pleasant walk along the bank of a small river and covers about 400 yards.
It is a good example of not "fighting the lay of the land."  Rather than trying to cover the land with a bad hole, Thompson simply accepted that there was no way to deal with it other than leave it be.

 

[johnk]

Huckster - I've walked Wente, including the Lombardo St switchback.  Really a terrible place to walk since they cut no walking paths off the tees through the waist deep grass ( I think hole twelve, a par 3) was particularly annoying.  I've never been back.

Anyhoo...  Not the longest walk between holes, but I once bet several players that they couldn't hit the 5th tee box from the edge of the 4th green at Poppy Ridge Chardonnay...  It's all about club selection there.  4-iron is too little, driver is too much...

More random factoids: I once read that Steve Williams won money off of Tiger and Butch by touching the front of every tee box and green, running on foot on the back nine at Plantation Course in under 30 mins (he did it in 19mins...).  Amazing little routing, and amazing how much knowledge the caddie has in his feet.

[Tom_Doak]

Stonehouse in Virginia has some of the longest rides/walks I've ever seen.  They gave us a cart to drive around and look at it which had one of those GPS yardage things on it ... when you cleared a green it automatically switched over to the precise yardage to the next green.

I believe that when we cleared the ninth green to start heading for #10, the yardage was something like 942 yards to the green -- on a hole of about 500 yards!

That long walk at Cape Breton is a beautiful experience, as long as the mosquitoes aren't out.  Sad to think they do it in carts now.

[James Edwards]

Robin,

Kiawah - Ocean Course 9 Green to 10 Tee.  Anyone who has played will know how long that is!

[Andrew Summerell]

Bonville GC in northern NSW is a cart only course that measures abour 6300m, but I have read is about 11,500m by cart.

Some of the distances between holes are huge.

[Tim_Weiman]

ChrisB:

The answer is no to both of your questions. Moreover, I suspect that would be true for many people on the European side of the pond.

If Robin is from the UK, an architect and wants to participate, great. I'd still recommend avoiding comments that could offend other Europeans. GCA has a long way to go attracting participants from that part of the world.

[ForkaB]

Tim

If you had taken the time to read Robin's initial post (which started the "Painswick--Astonished" thread) you wouldn't have made the errors that you did.  You might also have surmised that Robin has quite a sense of humour, in the dry British sense, to which those non-Europeans like you and I ought to learn to be more receptive.

Oh yeah, and just to keep this on topic, Marsh Landing at Ponte Vedra Beach has gruelling distances between tees, particularly if you are playing in a Mid-Am qualifier and are forced to walk it in the noon-day sun in the middle of August!

[Dan_Callahan]

The walk from the 9th hole to the 10th at Belgrade Lakes (in Maine) is so long and up such a steep hill that they have a chauffeured golf cart to move you along. The driver told me that several times he's had players fall out the back going up the hill!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

In the Philadelphia area, Tattersall has 2 long rides:
1. From 9 green to 10 tee- one must pass the 10 th green
2. From 18 green to clubhouse- according to staff this is over 1 mile!

An impossible course to walk.

Steve

[THuckaby2]

JohnK:

You are a man among men for tackling the switchback they call Lombard Street at Wente.  Well done.  I'm pretty damn proud of myself for making it up there sans heart attack.  

And that is depressing to here they've filled in the cut-through paths... those made it a decent walking course, sans Lombard Street... oh well.  Very few people ever walked it anyway, but this is still not a good sign.

I like the course, hell I typically just ride.

And good call re Poppy Ridge!  First time I played there was right as it opened, before the signs were up... we got lost twice.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

One aspect I'd be interested in everyone's experiences on is; when/what was the first course you noticed that the long cart rides may have been designed on purpose to maximize revenue?

San Juan Oaks was the first place I felt walkers were not being considered and even disadvantaged.

When did the golf course business become more interested in Cart revenue than the golf? 1985?

[THuckaby2]

AC:

Good call re San Juan Oaks.  The bias against walking hits you on #2 there... the only way to get to the green is via a LONG cart path over to the right, around the water... then same thing on #3 tee, to get to the fairway... it goes on and on.  With very little effort they could have made it doable for walkers, but they didn't.

But there are courses far older than that where this occurs..

Just sticking to the Monterey area:

How about Carmel Valley Ranch?

Laguna Seca?

I just grin and bear it, myself - though I know it pains the militant walkers to no end.

TH

[Big B]

Lighthouse Sound in OC, Md between the 8th & 9th.  It must 3/4 of a mile including a cart 1/4 mile cart bridge over wetlands.

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