[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I played the Babe course today in a tournament, and walked away not disgusted by the layout.  It desperately needs to have the shot blocking trees removed (located in fairways and guarding greens).  However, the course has  a good variety of shots required.  The fake Palm Springs pond on 3 and 5 is atrocious, but the greens complexes are good.  In addition, 3 offers a good risk/reward tee shot--a safe tee ball to the left makes reaching the back right impossible for any one not named Tiger; a lesser player than myself can even reach the right pin if successful on the gamble.  Also, I only thought of it on the drive home-- twenty plus years ago  when playing there occassionally we always remarked about the tight mowed areas that are now referred to as collection areas or chipping areas. The tightly mown areas blend in very naturally and offer a hell of a challenge to the good player, but the high handicapper could negotiate the challenge with a putter.  I used a different club on all the par 3's and thought the green complexes offered a variety of inteeresting pins.  I think it is a good candidate for a makeover.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

RMD,
You didn't mention one single iota of a thing on #9, which to me isn't really even a golf hole. Its probably more of an "area" and not a very good area at that.

[Jeff Fortson]

Tommy,

#9 on the Babe is tighter than a 12 year old girl.  It's like trying to hit a tee shot on a 250 yard long diving board, uphill.

It seems like it was an afterthought.  Oops!  We only have 17 holes here.  Quick, find some land to stick a hole!


Jeff F.

[Matt_Ward]

RMD / Tommy:

Does Industry Hills (Eisenhower) still do the trick where they list back tee distances but routinely put the back markers far forward for safety reasons. I am thinking of the first long par-4 you encounter on the back nine that follows the first par-3 on that side. If I can search my old brain I believe there are other instances of this.

FYI -- the 9th at the Babe can be called plenty of things but golf hole isn't one of them IMHO.

[mikeyolympic]

Matt,

Yes, Industry still lists the back distances on the card, but never has the tee marker for these "supposed" tournament tees out. In fact, they don't even use the back tees for qualifying tournaments for the U.S. open. they use the blue tees...

You're talking about the 14th hole. The card has it listed at 460 from the back, and that tee is right above the 13th green, but no one ever uses that tee. they use that tee from 360 out, and it's not much of a challenging tee shot from there... it is from that impossible back tee. That hole is impossible to each reach the fairway with! The back tee from there looks very unnatural and forced... which is a microcosm of the whole golf course...haha...

I play industry from all the way back all the time, and it's a tough golf course from back there... but some of the back tees are hidden. you have to definitely know where they are to play them. there is a back tee for the 1st hole inside all those hedges. there is a back tee on 17 all the way up the hill...

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I said some good holes for a reason--Is 9 one of the worst holes in the US?  When the course opened I remember a partially graded fairway down the hill past where the current fairway ends. I remember two excuses for the hole--ran out of money completing the course and Bell's fatal liver failure during construction of the course.  In addition to 9, how about 11--nothing like a blind (because of trees) third shot for those who lay up!          As for the fake yardages--there
 are some stupid tees on the Ike.  The back tee on 3 Babe was not in play Monday because there is such exteme tree blockage that the shot is a through the branches acting as a window shot. The rest of the back tees were used.  Incidentally, They used the need for a extreme slice tee on the Ike 1st hole.  I haven't played the Ike since 1991, but I remember 6 and 7  having back tees lost in the jungle of trees.  I would presume this has not changed and the same for some of the back nine holes.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matt, As Mike has said, and the last time I was there playing, they do list the back tee yardages as well as have one of their fine marshall staff enforce I believ eits a 3 handicap or better to play the Blacks. Also if I remember right, yardages at both courses used to be to the front of the green in the yardage book. On the sprinkler heads I seem to remember them giving you front middle and back, and none of them ever seemed accurate.

As one that has played #9 to both greens, upper and lower, and can tell you in all sincere truth, I have never seen a worse hole in the Game of Golf. I have hit everything from 5 irons to drivers in an effort to find a suitable club to play the hole, and still to this day, no luck in figuring it out.

The last itme I played the Babe, I was by myself on a late Saturday night after playing the Ike, and for this reason alone, I had one of those rounds going on the Babe that defied logical reason. From the blues, I birdied the first hole, lipped out for birdie on #2, Got away with par on #3, which RMD is correct, is a tough SOB with one of the ugliest raised lakes (Yes, no typo--a raised lake) got a par; took par on the 4th; birdied the 5th, and the 6th, which is a hole that is the bane of my existence, actually parred. So I'm two under going into the 7th, where I finally bogied a hole, parred 8, and then of course took a "10" on #9.

The hole just isn't bad because of my score, but as all have suggested, it was the place they could get another par 4 in at.

RMD, I assume you were out there trying to qualify for the Nissan; Hopefully you didn't have to play with the little girl that was trying to qualify also. Judging by the local coverage, it was a zoo.

Too bad they couldn't have had it at Diamond Valley!

[Matt_Ward]

mikeolympic / tommy:

Thanks for the info -- what concerns me as a rater / reviewer it the bait and switch deal that courses (the Ike included) do in order to bump up their slope and course ratings but the daily play of the course actually prohibits such usage of the very tees they constantly quote from on the scorecard.

The 14th is then a real 360 yard hole and not a super long one.

The scorecard should reflect what is really done -- not the Disneyland version.

[astavrides]

to rmd:

let me get this straight:  the fake pond on 3/5 is atrocious, but then you say there is good risk/reward on #3.  wouldnt that be because of the pond?  or did you mean atrocious aestetically?

[mikeyolympic]

matt,

you have to remember. this golf course was built during the "rating wars" era where there was all this buzz about who could build the hardest golf course... industry was definitely into that, and they just built a way too hard golf course for a resort! it's sort of lost its teeth now that they've cut down all their weeds and native grasses in some areas.. still tough though.


Tommy,

the 9th hole at babe... man, you really hate that hole... i could never hit driver there because it's just too narrow... i always hit 3 iron off that tee, and leave myself about 120-140 yards to the green, and hopefully, i hit it below the hole....that green is just impossible if you're above the hole and the pin is all the way back...

when you were talking about the 2nd green... are you talking about that green that is near that water pump? it's sort of surrounded by the hedges now? i always thought that green was some test green... was that green ever in play? man, it would have been the dumbest hole if that green was in play... where would you hit it off the tee? and if you hit iron, you leave yourself like 200 from there if you're playing to that green... geez...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mike,
When the course was opened, the trees were small enoug or less evolved enough to where you could attempt to drive over them or cut around around them. Of course over time that shot become non-existant.

Now, are you sitting down?

Yes, that green up near the pump house used to be in play before they grew the hedges. At one time, back in the days when they wanted to give the course this tough bully on the block reputation, where the first cut of fairway rough was four inches throughout both courses, they used to play it up there quite regulary. That was back in the days of the catering truck without wheels--half-way house!

Personally, I loathe Industry Hills with great passion, even though I used to play it almost weekly. I was even going to join the club there at one point, but common sense got the better part of me. There are some interesting holes out there on both courses, but I liken them to a tooth ache.

[mikeyolympic]

Tommy,

Damn... that would have been a tough hole with that green... there would be no question but to hit driver there if that was the case... that would be scary...

It's funny you mention the 4 inch rough back then. I remember hearing about that when the course was predominantly bermuda back then.... the rough must have been brutal...

They have an huge aerial view picture of the golf course when it was first built over at the swimming pool waiting room. you're right... the course had no trees... do you think this course would be much better without the trees that have definitely matured and block many lines of play?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Tommy, I played behind the LPGA player at El Camino last week.   She was a very pleasant person who has a serious amount of game--I would not be surprised if she wins Rookie of the Year.  The upper green on 9 is always why I wondered  about the two excuses for the hole's temporary appearance. The 8th and 10th are super holes which makes the 9th a big question--How can the same guy who created the 8th and 10th have also made the 9th?                                          Earlier, someone posed the question on how I could lable the pond on 3 as atrocious and also call the hole a wonderful risk/reward?  Well, I think the pond is well located strategically.  I think a bunker complex would have served the hole better .  I would not be surprised if the 3rd hole pond was a major inspiration to Ted Robinson!  The pond really does fall into a have to see it to believe it category--How rare is an elevated water hazard?  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

As far as the rough, the first time I ever played IH was probably around 1982, and if you hit anywhere in the fairway rough, the ball was gone. You simply couldn't find it. Most liked this, because it was all part of that tough is good mentality that seemed to be influencing golf at that time. Simply put, in those conditions Industry Hills was a very penal golf course.

And of course back then, there goes the old story of Tom Kite and Tom Watson playing there as a scout team for the PGA Tour to see if it was an acceptable venue; where Kite walked-off in disgust after 12 holes, and Watson shot like an 82 or 83.

I also remember all so well the Oly Gold LPGA Tournament that was held there one year. The winning score was like 3 or 4 over, and the women refused to return there the next year.

#9 on top of the hill was a monster. Partially because for a guy like me, you had to hit a really long lofted club up there usually from an angle.  I don't know if its still out there or not, but one of the best most wacky greens, a huge behemoth which they used also used for the turf nursery and for teaching a short game class was left of #16, on the Ike at the most Western part of the course.

I have to add, I have had some really fun and enjoyable times up there at IH. It was a place I found out where you could play on Saturday or Sunday afternoon for only $30.00 and during the week for $25.00 at twilight rates, then go into the Putter's Cup afterwards for a NY Steak or Prime Rib dinner for under $10.00.  

If I got up there and didn't feel like golfing or it was really slow, I would instead go into the library and visit with Marge and Saundra till they closed, and it was all very memorable for my golfing education.

When people got wise to the twi-light rates, it became a zoo, and after a couple of years they raised the rates, plus, the  the golf course(s) just finally got to me to the point they weren't fun to play anymore.

I agree with RMD, there are some interesting holes that require smart play, otherwise your going to get it handed to you and but good. I still think one of the best greens on the course is #1 on the Ike, and for the life of me, I'm still trying to figure out why BB Jr. thought a large slice would the best tee shot from there, especially when the only smoother part of the fairway is loaded with bunkers and trees. I have been on that hole when they were filming the Jackie Mason hooked to a teaching contraption scene from that bomb, Caddyshack II. Most of the driving range scenes and other golf course stuff was filmed on the hill just above #1's driving area. I also got to see first hand that day what a jerk Chevy Chase is in real life when he cursed out the really sweet lady in Winston Churchill snack bar.

I loathe Industry Hills!

RMD, How is El Camino playing these days?

[THuckaby2]

All right, I can stand it no longer.  And I post primarily just to prove to certain detractors that there are courses I don't love.

I HATE INDUSTRY HILLS - both god-awful courses.

I first played these monstrosities in 1980, right when they opened.  In fact I have a great story about my exploits in the 1981 CIF championships held on the Ike course, but I won't go into that now.

Suffice to say that Tommy has covered the main reasons for my hatred.  For me, maybe it started with #2 on the Ike being a 500 yard par 4, from the tips - in 19-freakin'-80!  Then add the haylike rough, with little white flowers all over the place in it, each of which from more than 5 feet away looked exactly like a golf ball... Idiot supertiered greens meant to torment rather than inspire... well, that's enough - Tommy covered it all.  Industry Hills Ike is the first course I ever played in my young life at that time that I came off saying "what the hell was that?"  In a sense, I have to hand it to the place, it got me thinking about golf courses as places that could inflict pain... so gave me at least the tiny critical sense I do have today... but good lord did I hate that place.

Went back a few years ago just to see if it was me back then, if the place really was that bad... and if anything, it's worse now.  Thankfully they closed a lot of the moronic back tees and closed the green on #9 Babe like Tommy says, but in the interim the trees had grown up... so what was a horrifying treeless torture chamber in the 1980s now added claustrophobic tightness to the mix.

Did I mention I hate these courses?  

Funny though, I would play either of them again, just because it is after all golf.  But dammit you'd hear a lot of complaint that day....

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
Feels good to hate a golf course doesn't it!  

(Also, by 500 yard par 4, 2nd, I think you mean the 5th don't you? The 2nd is the really downhill, dog-leg, over the pond that General Cardoza's men were fishing golf balls out of in Chevy Chase's "Deal of the Century") The 10th is also the hole that Michael Douglas went wacko on in "Falling Down."

I concur completely on all of the holes you said, the 499 yard, 5th from the tips par 4 (ridiculous hole with ridiculous length that I'm sure with for the really long guys, even todays superballs, the hole is even more unplayable because of the lack of driving area where they would end up!)(imagine how big those trees are now and the fall off on the left side. The driving area must be less then 20 yards wide)

Few know this, but the entire "tough is good" mentality of IH is because founder Bill Bryant strived for this to be a future US Open site! the Bryants were good people, albeit slightly misguided in this cause, but they funded the library for all of those years, andI'm forever thankful. IN fact, Golf should be thankful.

That being, Tom, did you ever play the 9th on the Babe to the top green?

[THuckaby2]

Tommy:

You know in a very strange way this does feel good.  

And you must be right about the 500 yard par 4 - man I have actively tried so hard to purge my memory of these awful golf courses, and must have succeeded too well.  I just remember walking up to that the first time and saying "what the f*ck is this?"  This was back in the days of competitive golf, when they made us play black tees....

Oh well.  What's kind of redemptive for me these days is that now it seems more RIGHT to hate the place, given how they ditched the library.  Just never felt right before to hate the courses where such a cool treasure trove of golf history was kept....

And come to think of it, I don't think I ever did play #9 Babe to that upper green, though I do remember seeing it.  For whatever reason, back in the day they made us play Ike a lot more than Babe.  

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Robert,
Sounds like perfect magazine fodder. But, the courses are still popular among the Asian culture that frequents it, hence the name change from Industry Hill Sheraton to Pacific Palms Resort and Conference Center (although the names of the course(s) is in fact still Industry Hills)

I could never figure out why Billy Bell wanted trees in front and in back of bunkers, which happens a lot on the Ike. Another if not more perfect reason to hate the course even more.

Tom, I have not been back to Industry Hills since they canned the library, other then a drive around the parking lot one night while on an evening cruise, while on the phone with a GCA regular. I have forever etched in my memory this young MBA-looking guy dressed in a golf shirt coming into the library with his assistant, going into detail where there new offices were going to be constructed, all the while, never letting Marge and Saundra know the exact fate (even though they knew it) of their jobs and the library itself. It was pretty cruel, and as far as I'm concerned, they (The Roski Group)and they're whole complex can rot in Hell.)

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

Does the SCGA still hold qualifiers for the Open at The Ike?

[Jeff Fortson]

Matt,

Yes they do still host local qualifiers.


Jeff F.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jeff, Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they alternate between there and Los Serranos for Open Qualifying?  

I know for the CGA Championship, they used to use Los Serranos as the Southern California qualifier site, and if you were lucky, you found your way on to Cypress Point's first tee the following Friday morning.

Here is a course that doesn't get a lot of talk, but I think is pretty interesting in some affect. I think with some really good bunker work, Los Serranos would without doubt be much more reknown. I know it was looked at for a possible Pub Links site, which woud be cool too!

Matt, This is a course you would find some interest in, but would have to go in knowing that its a public course and doesn't always get the best maintenance. It's owned by tennis legend Jack Kramer, and along with its North course, which was the original, designed by John Ducan Dunn is way kinda cool. Not expensive to play either.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Tommy,  El Camino has been victomized by real estate greed--10 has been shortened 40 yards and good 25 yards on 11 so that anExtended Stay hotel can occupy the main road frontage.  I know Bell is not the greatest architect, but his courses generally play well in tournaments.  El Camino plays fairly short these days, but the greens are fairly severe, so a little thought is required on shot placement.  I really thought a super low score would qualify (63-65), but it was a pair of 68's.  The nines were reversed,so traditional 9 was the finishing hole--I think this is a better set up.   The right trees on 8 have died, I wish I had known that when I teed off--I bogeyed 8 and 9 to finish with a 69.   I am a regular Billy Bell course player in the winter--San Luis Rey Downs, Torrey, Lomas Exec, are among my regular courses.

[Forrest Richardson]

As counteracting medicine to some of the comments here, I have had some great times on both courses — especially the Ike. I agree about the Babe having some odd areas, but nearly all courses have bad bits. Agreed however, these are bad.

The wonderful story, of course, is that the underlying canyons are solid waste landfills. Literally, the place is built on a mountain of trash. With many constraints — too many to count — these two courses were brought to life at a time when golf was going into a great upswing.

The concept of Industry Hills stands tall among courses: It's an environmental winfall mixed with decent golf — and the great details of the Ralph Miller Library plus plenty of golfing lore in glass cases throughout the resort. The creators were all on the same page, and wound up with a terrific story. Even the menus were golf-oriented.

Could it have been better? Of course. But there have been only a handfull of equally decent golf desitiantions created in the past 30 years which so captured the spirit of the game from A to Z.

I agree about the need for a transformation. But I hope it would look closely at the ideals originally set, and not necessarily try to make the place someone's vision of a classic or throw-back venue.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Forrest,
How nice of a post.

I hate to disappoint you, but that much heralded vision or concept of its owners was long ago disemboweled by those who thought the place could make them more money with less heritage or respect to the principles on which it was founded.--go figure.

If you want some of those menus with the golf scenes on them as well as the trophy cases filled with historical memorbilia, you can probably find it all somewhere in the BBK Landfill just North East of the 14th tee of the Babe.

[Forrest Richardson]

Trophies and menus...those you can kill. So, too, the nuances of a golf course — all the details, bunker edges, green shapes, etc. They can easily be gone with the next wind, harsh season, poor economy or bad crew.

Routings are much more difficult to kill. They tend to live on, almost forever.

Ahhh, but concepts...well, those never die. They live forever just as they do anywhere else where ideas have been embraced, recorded and remembered.

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