The angles associated with water carries

[Jeff_Mingay]

Dan, With a guy like you around here, I'm going to need an editor for future posts! In order to ensure that all of my thoughts are explained clearly and concisely.[Which reminds me, I should have wrote, "I'm not AGAINST critcism". Rather than, "I'm not ADVERSE to criticism", as I did above. That was the wrong choice of word  ]Geez, a guy has a few (Canadian) beers late at night, before bed, expresses that he likes Klein's book, that reviews are "meaningless" to him, and that books (in general) are great things, and now he's in a heated debate! You win. I've been sitting in front of the computer too long over the last few days...

[Tim_Weiman]

Dan Kelly:It sounds like we agree to agree!On the subject of any possible vendetta by Golf Magazine against Brad Klein, I have no special insight to offer.My bias is that I want to encourage more authors to do work like Klein has done.

[THuckaby2]

That's cool Noel, to each his own.  I still think you and your deer-striking comrade (oh yes, I remember the story) are off your collective rockers, but that's ok - variety is the spice of life and if you had to pick one course to be called "better" than MY beloved NGLA (like how I've taken ownership), I guess I can live with it being the next-door neighbor.If the world were perfect and all I did was play golf and I could pick where I played each day, I'd play 4 days a week at NGLA, one at Shinnecock just for the test, and the 6th and 7th devote to rest and/or Maidstone or other nearby greates and drives down to Philly.  I'd live in Southampton and life would be good.  I'd to this 1/3 of the year and spend another 1/3 in Carmel, where the courses would be Cypress and Pebble as the staples with MPCC and the other nearby greats thrown in. The remaining 1/3 would be devoted to travel.Like this fantasy?In any case, NGLA is the main staple for me in Southampton.  Shinnecock just requires more game than I care to try and have on a daily basis.TH

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Huckaby:Frankly, #6 at Shinnecock just annoys me, so I don't want to give it any special awards.  But, obviously, Paul's point is well taken.Now, on to more important things, specifically the fact that you deserve a serious slapping.You had the nerve - blinded by your California bias - to question my PB vs PD match play result.  Just when you thought I'd forgotten your outrageous defense of that old course, you now tell me you can't suggest any imporvements to #2 at Pacific Dunes.  Shame on you!What kind of a golf architecture junkie are you?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,Thanks for jogging my memory about the one at Hershey (it's on the "South" course, which for years was the public layout called Hershey Parkview).  You're correct that Hershey owns 3 courses, the West & South by Maurice McCarthy, and the East by George Fazio, which hosts a Buy.com tour event.  The West and South are the infinitely better courses.The hole you mentioned is, I believe, the 5th if the course is still routed the same.  McCarthy built 3 holes in a row along a neat creekbed, starting with the second, which is a long, dropshop par three over the creek, and then two medium length par fours that dogleg in different directions using the creek strategically.  Unfortunately, that took him to the low point of the property, as well as to the boundary.  How to get out of that mess?  Well, right back up the hill with the 5th! You're right...I don't recall seeing much of anything except perhaps the top of the flagstick, but it was incredibly fun.  In fact, you can see the hole from the road if you're driving up 322 into Hershey Park.  Just look for the green along the creek in the corner of the property, and look left UP the HILL and that is the 5th. Don't worry if you can't see a green up there....it's there  

[DB3]

  I am not so sure why everyone is so confused about 6 at Shinnecock.  Other than the fact that it is a blind tee shot, you want to hit it down the right side as much as you dare.  Hole plays shorter and you have the full length of the green to use. The hole is 450+ yard which means it's a driver and the fairway is pretty big. It is one of my favorite holes of all time, but I don't think it is confusing.  The fact that you can't see the fairway from the back tee adds a little anxiety, but not confusion, at least not for me.     I think 6 at BAlly is the same way. There you can see the whole fairway, granted you are hitting at the O.B. off the tee, but I don't think it is confusing. I don't understand this notion.  To me confusion comes from not knowing what type of shot to play, I soon as I choose the shot, that dictates the way to play the hole.   Tim:  I do wish that Doak had made PD a little harder from the back tees. Just because I may be in a very small minority of players doesn't mean that I should be ingnored.  Given the fact the PD plays a little short, and in general the greens are huge, it takes away a little of the strategy.  Case in point #2.  I teed off early and there was a little wind in my face.  I hit 3wd off the tee past that bunker, hit a wedge for my second.  GRanted wind conditons can change that hole, and fortunatley we ended up with a good north wind about an hour later.  I hit driver, 3wd on 13 from that way back tee, and knocked a two iron on the front of the green in two on 18.  I shot 70 in a twenty mile an hour wind the first time I had layed eyes on the course.  Don't get me wrong,the place is great, and quite honestly after playing BAndon from the tips in the afternoon, I could have used a break.  PD is a little like Indian Creek to me. Both are just a blast to play, but I wish each was a little harder.  I don't think there is anything wrong with that.   Taking it one step further if you were to ask me what is missing at PD, I think I would tell you a really long par 3. 16 at Cypress, 2 at Shinnecock, 5 at Pine Valley, 6 at Pinehurst.  Something like that.  Sorry to stray off the subject of confusion.  Dan Belden

[NAF]

Tom,I like the fantasy but perhaps devoting a month to one architect and playing his/her courses would be worthwhile.On Shinnecock vs. National, maybe I need to play National more.  I think Shinnecock rewards a well struck shot better, there is a little more rub of the green at National..You can strike a good approach into some of the greens there and they are so contoured you do not get a good result..I don't mind that, in fact I relish it but on a day to day basis I would just love to spend my time ball striking at Shinnecock.  This is splitting hairs though.

[Mike_Clayton]

RichardI cant speak for Greg but he used to have a deal with Holden,an Australian car company, who sponsor the Open. That finished early this year and he now has a role with Toyota.Maybe a coincidence, maybe not.

[Mike_Cirba]

Noel,Thanks for sharing your list.  While your list is certainly a cause for envy and dismay by others, I'm here to tell them that it couldn't happen to a nicer guy!   Just think...2002 is only 40 days away.  I'm already dreaming of far-flung golfing adventures for next year and I'm sure you are as well.  

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