[Mark Chaplin]

Sean I'm talking about a club that was formed in 1744, where the likes of Hagen, Trevino, Nicklaus, Player, Vardon, Faldo, Els, Cotton and Watson have lifted the Claret Jug. The Amateur, Ryder, Curtis and Walker Cups have been contested for on numerous occasions. Oh and it's held the Seniors Open and who won that? Tom Watson, personally I think the place has pedigree.

The fact the Canary and I each know members and have been fortunate enough to see the club is an extremely civilised place to play golf, dine and relax doesn't even come into the equation.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean,

I think if you disregard pedigree, history & ambience then you should also disregard value for money. You either talk about the course alone or you talk about the golf experience.

Donal (& Niall),

It's interesting to see your last posts because they are in general agreement with me. Although I'm not familiar with Hoylake or Lythym, I always imagine the Irish equivalent as Portmarnock and the Scottish equivalent as Muirfield. I think there is tons of subtle and great design within the golf holes on these courses and when you have flat fairways straight through dune valleys, you should only be comparing what is within the golf hole. Because in reality, what are the flanking dunes at Birkdale other than just a form of containment mounding? This is where I think bunkering becomes important and although I am in general agreement with Sean's overarching philosophy on "less is more" with regards to bunkering, these old, flatter links courses demand good bunkering to make great holes. Muirfield's is exquisite.

Now if you get big dunes systems, have holes routed through, over and on top of them and include undulation within the golf holes and green surrounds, then that is a different matter.

[Sean_A]

Ally

Being one who 100% believes in golf away days as an experience I definitely like history, ambience and beauty.  In fact, it is these elements which push Muirfield over the top for me in stating that everybody should visit at least once.  But where is pedigree taking us?  I could care less about the class of members.  Perhaps it was a bad choice of words on Chappers' part. 

All the Open venues more or less fit the description of should be seen at least once as the combo of course and history should be compelling for most hard core golfers.  Carnoustie may be the only one which doesn't fully take advantage of its place in history and be a naturally beautiful site.  For some, the course is enough to overcome these shortcomings, but I am one to believe that most of the Open courses aren't really that much if better (if at all) than many of the other well known courses in GB&I.  Its the history and ambience which tips the scales. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally

Being one who 100% believes in golf away days as an experience I definitely like history, ambience and beauty.  In fact, it is these elements which push Muirfield over the top for me in stating that everybody should visit at least once.  But where is pedigree taking us?  I could care less about the class of members.  Perhaps it was a bad choice of words on Chappers' part. 

All the Open venues more or less fit the description of should be seen at least once as the combo of course and history should be compelling for most hard core golfers.  Carnoustie may be the only one which doesn't fully take advantage of its place in history and be a naturally beautiful site.  For some, the course is enough to overcome these shortcomings, but I am one to believe that most of the Open courses aren't really that much if better (if at all) than many of the other well known courses in GB&I.  Its the history and ambience which tips the scales. 

Ciao

I took pedigree to refer to the number of championships and playing class of the winners, not the social class of the members.

I agree with you regards the Open courses not necessarily being better than other courses but aside from the history of these courses, I'll give you one other, often overlooked area where they are generally superior: Their size and scale.

Often I see people referring to the scale of a golf course by talking about high dunes and dramatic playing areas. But scale is not about that at all. It is about the proportional relationship of the space to its surrounds. I think (though I could be corrected) that the Open courses are all LARGE... Again this has nothing to do with length... they have big greens that don't seem that way because they are positioned next to big playing corridors and wide spaces... everything is scaled up yet fits perfectly... That counts for a lot in my opinion.... I'll refer back to Portmarnock because I know it best... It has huge greens - much bigger than people would ever realise but it all fits the eye because of similar size surrounds.

That's not to say small courses aren't good... or fun... or even the way ahead... But almost all the GREAT courses, from championship links courses to classic American parkland courses to current day Doak courses are BIG in their scale... At least that's how it seems to me... I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions (maybe Merion on 120 acres?) but it counts for something... Lest I forget to return to topic, Muirfield surely comes under this category...

[Sean_A]

Ally

Yes, I realize the pedigree deal is actually referring to history.

You may be right about scale, but I would still contend that Muirfield plays small on a large site.  When I think of the grand sites like Sandwich and Turnberry, it seems to me Muirfield is fairly small in how it plays.  Perhaps the exact opposite is TOC, playing much bigger than its site would suggest.  As a group though, I think you are right, but then again if maintained properly with lots of short grass, these courses should play large.  I know on tv they always seem big so it was a real surprise when I first started visiting Open venues.  Lytham felt very constrained, not surprising I guess with all the bunkers.  But when I think of my favourite links, such as St Enodoc, Lahinch, Rye, Prestwick, Enniscrone and N Berwick - these seem small compared to Open venues.  The one exception despite not having large greens and actual confined space is Pennard.  Gosh, it seems the course goes on forever at times.

It occurs to me that the scale issue may be one reason why you liked Porthcawl so much.   

I am not skilled in these matters, but it would be interesting to compare the size of Beau Desert's greens (which seem as a group large to me) with Muirfield's.  

Ciao

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Bump

[Joel_Stewart]

Seemed like a good time to bring this back.  Please note the 2nd post from Mike Clayton.

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