[billb]

Okay, I feel the need to throw in my 2 pence worth:

In September of 1997 I spent 2 weeks in Scotland, playing 20 different courses in East Lothian, Fife, Cruden Bay, and the Moray Firth area, including just about all the courses in this thread.

I *really* liked Muirfield. The weather was absolutely terrible - huge winds, rain on and off, a "classic" links day.  It rained so hard in the afternoon we walked off after 14 holes with our 2-ball match undecided.

I thought the routing was great - how the holes go all differrent directions, the wind seemingly blowing in a new direction on every hole. The traditional "out and back" routing of so many links courses in big wind is just not fun.

There are very few blind drives and no blind approaches, the fairways are much more level than most links, the greens not overly undulated, but the course is still a stern challenge.

My caddy was getting all pissy with me, kept handing me driver on the tee, and trying to get me to go for the greens from 200+ with a 3 wood. I was watching the other members in my group hacking away in the long wet rough, it was a truly ugly site, I wanted no part of it. I hit lots of 2-irons off the tees and lots of lay up shots, made lots of bogeys, but kept the ball out of the gunk. My score wasn't anything great but I sure had fun.

The question was raised here, can players of different skills play and enjoy Muirfield? My answer is yes....if they can swallow their ego and play the shots that the course and conditions dictate. If you don't have some kind of tee shot that goes pretty straight and is somewhat reliable what the heck are you doing at any quality golf course? The big American driver swing and high trajectory shot just doesnt cut it at a links course...Muirfield just makes sure you pay the price for these poor shot choices. To quote Dennis Miller: "about as useless as a lob wedge at Carnoustie".

I enjoyed the Muirfield routine : a shower (the best showerheads in Scotland   ) after the morning 4-ball, jacket and tie for the awesome buffet, the lunch conversation about nothing but golf with people from all over the place, the afternoon 2-ball with the caddies pushing us HARD to finish, another shower and the jacket and tie again for drinks in the bar overlooking the 18th green.

A day I will always remember and an experience that any golfer who appreciates British golf should experience.

Bill

[Jonathan Cummings]

Bill - sounds just like my experience at Muirfield.  It will never be my favorite Scottish course (Turnberry is my hands down favorite) but Muirfield is great in every sense of the word.

Ally - Nairn can never hold a candle to Dornoch.  Well varied in required shots and character, the holes at Dornoch explore a far more diverse plot of land.  While Nairn is a thoroughly pleasant golf course it has too few really good holes to compete with Dornoch.  In my book, even nearby Lossiemouth and Golspie are better courses than Nairn.

Here's a fun story about Nairn.  For the past 30-40 years a small group of Nairn members have held a very informal tournament every June 22.  The group meets at the first tee and they play 36 holes.  They then go into the clubhouse and have breakfast!!!  The tourney starts at 1am.

JC

[Sean_A]

I found this to be an interesting discussion.  I especially like the comment about Muirfield being a technically good (great?) course.  I spose that is how I feel.  Decent piece of land on which a technically sound course was built, but very few risks were taken in the design.  In a way, Muirfield reminds me of Porthcawl.  Another very sound course, but somehow lacking despite it having better terrain than Muirfield.  I wonder if I would take to Muirfield more if the rough was kept in a more traditional manner. If that isn't possible, then wider fairways.  It seems to me that if a course is going to rely heavily on its 150 bunkers, then there must be space to steer well clear.  I fear this is this the issue I have with Muirfield.  Despite what seems a huge site, the course actually plays small. 

Ciao     

[Jon Wiggett]

I have to agree with Sean about the size of the course. Although it would not be in keeping with the up market image I wonder if grazing with sheep year round would improve the playability of the rough and so widen the course from a playing point of view. I think that many course are worse for not being grazed anymore.

Jon

[Rich Goodale]

Jon

Do you have the sheep franchise in East Lothian?

More seriously, to argue that Muirfield is not one of the greatest courses in the world is to argue that Kate Middleton's breasts are undersized.

Rich

[Mark Pearce]

Some truly bizarre opinions expressed in this thread (Nairn better than Dornoch?  Really?) and some old, tired prejudices about Muirfield recycled.  I play Muirfield 2 or three times a year, both as a visitor and as a guest of a member.  I have played it with a wide variety of abilities of golfer.  The first thing to say is that I have never found myself in a group that has spent a disproportionate amount of time looking for balls.  Yes, there is some horrid rough in places but really, if a player thinks about what he is doing, has some basic level of competence (it isn't a course for beginners of utter knackers but then name me an Open Championship venue that is, except perhaps TOC) he'll get his ball round.  Crap shots might get lost but a sensibly thought out, reasonably executed shot should be found.

I playe there annually with a bunch of mates who are just golfers, not GCA fanatics.  The reason we go back every year is because they absolutely love it.  If you aren't having fun playing it you're looking for the wrong thing.  It's perfectly playable by an average golfer.  As someone who fluctuates around a 12 handicap I have failed to break 100 and broken 80 there.  For me it is the course that best reflects the quality of your game.

I agree with all the comments on the quality of the routing, the strengths of the holes, the great greensites and the genius of the hazard placement.

For me there are only two golf courses I have played that compete with Muirfield for the status of "best course I have played".  They are Dornoch and CPC.  There may be other, better courses out there but I haven't played them yet.

It is extraordinary (and perhaps a reflection of the genius of the architecture) that Muirfield, more than anywhere else, produces such a disparity between the opinions of golfers when it comes to addressing its quality.  There are very sound judges of a golf course, who I usually agree with, whose opinion of Muirfield is completely different from mine and other better judges than me.

[Sean_A]

More seriously, to argue that Muirfield is not one of the greatest courses in the world....
Rich

I wonder if folks think Muirfield is one of THE great courses, but one that doesn't really warrant several visits?  In other words, perhaps greatness doesn't equate to admiration, love or whatever folks feel for courses they hold in high esteem.  I know for me two visits at the asking price was enough.  Though there is no question that all interested in golf, architecture and golf history should visit Muirfield at least once, but I would argue that for all Open venues.  Many divide opinion within the context (imo) of some form of greatness. 

Ciao

[Ivan Morris]

Never played Muirfield, never even tried to play there - it's too darn expensive. So, no comment apart from saying that I like circular routings and I like flat terrain (e.g. Portmarnock) To quote somebody who is a far better golfer than I - nae wind, nae gawf! By the way, I'm not a fan of golf ball devouring rough within 40-yards of the centre of the fairway either but if I know that it is there I make 'certain adjustments.'

[Rich Goodale]

Sorry, Sean, but for once, you are wrong....

My first and only "bucket list" trip to Scotland was in 1978, and subsequent to that (other than occasionally chaperoning groups of Americans friends on their own bucket list trips...), the only courses I visited annually over the next 12 years were Dornoch (actually semi-annually, and where I became a member in 1981...), Troon (where I had made a great friend in 1978 and "paid" only through reciprocation) and Muirfield.  Since moving to Scotland in 1990, the only bucket list course I have actually paid to play (excluding my annual subs at Dornoch) was Muirfield.  It is that good.  At least to me....

Rich

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon

Do you have the sheep franchise in East Lothian?

More seriously, to argue that Muirfield is not one of the greatest courses in the world is to argue that Kate Middleton's breasts are undersized.

Rich

Hi Rich,

no, no sheep franchise

More seriously, I have never argued that Muirfield is not one of the greatest courses in the world and have indeed always held it in very high regard.

Have not seen the photos so cannot comment on Kate Middleton's assets

Jon

[Mark Chaplin]

Reply #1 to this thread maybe 9 years old but tells all you need to know of the calibre of Muirfield.

[Gary Slatter]

love seeing 9 year old revivals.   IMHO any course good enough to be on Rich's bucket list is good enough for me.   

I live only to be able to get back to play Muirfield again, and to make the trip to Anstruther to see the world's best physio person (Barton).

[Niall C]

Mark P

Now you're havering, you know fine well that Nairn is better than Dornoch.

As for your other point about Muirfields reputation as a swallower of golf balls, I recall my only round there one winter when bags and indeed trolleys were being blown over and trouble stopping putts on some greens the wind was that strong. I don't recall any of my fourball losing loads of balls and as you say if you are reasonably competent and adjust your game accordingly then its eminently playable.

Niall

[Mark Pearce]

Reply #1 to this thread maybe 9 years old but tells all you need to know of the calibre of Muirfield.

I thought the exact same thing.

In retrospect, Mike said all that needed to be said.  I'mnot great on the definitions of the Doak scale but Muirfield really is a course where if you miss any hole you miss an important part of the course.

[David Davis]

For me Muirfield is a course I think I need another go at. Like the Old Course. I played them both on the same trip and tar and feather me but I had more fun at Kingsbarns, also same trip. Also my first ever golf trip and what convinced me that this was what I wanted to do for the rest of my life.

What sticks out in my memory although this was in 2005 I believe is that the lunch was wonderful a rare treat in the UK. (yes in my opinion). The course came across as bland, visually. The rough was high but playable and I didn't lose a ball, although I almost lost one. I didn't play great but I'm not a great player so shouldn't expect to. I made three birdies but can't remember on which holes. I remember a unique par 3 on the back 9 and unless I look it up I don't remember which hole it was. maybe 14 or 15. I wasn't into architecture at all at the time so was just playing for fun. The gentleman I played with and arranged the trip for was the father of one of my best friends who's a member at Knollwood in Lake Forest IL. The course was legendary for him as was the experience. I was too young (in golf years) and too inexperienced to really appreciate it. Although the out in clockwise/counterclockwise routing was very unique to me even at the time. We also played the course from the medal tees as the older gentleman was good but not long enough for the backs. It was windy.

He stayed in the Greystokes Hotel which I arranged for him, I stayed in a lovely bed and breakfast about a 5 minute walk away for the price of lunch in the local pub. I was impressed with the classic cozy UK style of the hotel and the two dinners we had there were very good as was the little hotel bar in back.

That's why I want another go someday, I know I will appreciate it more but I can't imagine changing my opinion as to the land and surroundings.

Do most of you think that at some stage those things have less influence on your appreciation of a course? The land, surroundings and views?

I've also played Nairn and Dornoch and everything else in the area. I loved Nairn but don't think for a second it's better than Dornoch from an architectural standpoint. I also loved Cruden Bay, even the two holes Ally says are poor. I mean if two of the most quirky but very fun holes I've seen are the two worst holes on your home course...what's to complain about?

I certainly hope we can work a BUDA here next year or at some point as if you guys think the Muirfield rough is tough and you had to search a lot I can't wait to see what you think of Noordwijkse. I think it makes Muirfield seem like a holiday. Another reason for me to get back.

[Sean_A]

Sorry, Sean, but for once, you are wrong....

My first and only "bucket list" trip to Scotland was in 1978, and subsequent to that (other than occasionally chaperoning groups of Americans friends on their own bucket list trips...), the only courses I visited annually over the next 12 years were Dornoch (actually semi-annually, and where I became a member in 1981...), Troon (where I had made a great friend in 1978 and "paid" only through reciprocation) and Muirfield.  Since moving to Scotland in 1990, the only bucket list course I have actually paid to play (excluding my annual subs at Dornoch) was Muirfield.  It is that good.  At least to me....

Rich

Rihc

To each is own.  Muirfield isn't the sort of course I would choose to drop $300+ these days.  Maybe at half that price I would give it another go.  I expect Muirfield and Trump to battle for the dubious honour of highest green fee in the north. 

Chappers

1-18 fantastic?  You are easily pleased, now if you could only say why?

Ciao 

[John Shimp]

Reply 61 says it all. If you have a quality game Muirfield will let you show it if you dont it wont. Magical place too.

[Mark Pearce]

I expect Muirfield and Trump to battle for the dubious honour of highest green fee in the north. 

Sean,

I'm sorry to say that this displays a prejudice and puts the rest of your comments into perspective.  Muirfield is no more expensive than any of the other Scottish Open rota courses and Prestick.  Indeed, arguably, given that it's a 36 hole day, it is better value.  Certainly the shoulder season dels they do are significantly cheaper (£100 in March, when it is in excellent playing condition).  There's no reason at all to "expect" Muirfield to be priced anything like Trump in future years.  For whatever reason it seems you aren't a dispassionate observer here, which is a shame, because expensive as it is (like all Open courses) it's as good a day out as there is in golf and as good a course as there is in the UK.

[Sean_A]

Mark

By north I did mean Scotland.  I am well aware that other Open venues charge similar fees to Muirfield - in the $300 round/$400 day range.  

My so called prejudice (I would say it is preference) has nothing to do with Open venues.  It has to do with ultra expensive golf not delivering good value.  If Muirfield were £100 I would happily trundle up in high season because I think that is good value for Muirfield.  In other words, while I believe Muirfield to be a fine course, albeit one which really isn't my bag, I don't think the course is good enough to justify the fee.  Although, I think the club does a very good job of making the day special and very Muirfieldish.  There is nothing like a day at Muirfield - well not in my experience anyway.  All golfers who enjoy history, tradition and architecture should spend at least one day at Muirfield.  Its just a shame the cost is prohibitive and/or the course isn't more to my taste.  For me, every course has its breaking point in terms of pricing.  I don't want or need to pay through the nose as I can play good courses for reasonable fees.  At this stage in my golfing travels, this sort of golf tossed in with the odd mega bucks course is good enough for me.  I don't care enough for Muirfield to be one of the megabucks courses I would splash out for.    

I had a look at my Links100 ranking for Muirfield - #21 GB&I.  Not too bad for a course I am not enamoured with.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

Scotland doesn't go much further south than Muirfield or do you consider Deal to be the north-east of England

I had possibly my best golfing day experience ever on a cold and windy January day. Great course practically to ourselves, really warm welcome, plenty of golfing history to absorb, it could not have been better. I do however agree with you about the price. I do not believe any course needs or can justify asking more than £75-£80 for the green-fee and although Muirfield's included lunch it would put me off returning.

Jon

[Niall C]

Quote from David Davis

"That's why I want another go someday, I know I will appreciate it more but I can't imagine changing my opinion as to the land and surroundings.

Do most of you think that at some stage those things have less influence on your appreciation of a course? The land, surroundings and views?"

David

At the risk of getting pelters from the majority of folk on this discussion board I've slowly come to the conclusion that surroundings and aesthetics count a lot more to the overseas golfers, and perhaps especially to the north americans who are perhaps more atuned to the visual stimula of modern courses over there.

I think this largely accounts for the relative lack of love for places like Troon and Nairn from overseas golfers while they go bananas over courses like Dornoch, Cruden Bay and any other course that has lovely views, gorse, elevational change.......and oh yes, holes going in different directions 

The homegrown golfer, particularly if he plays a lot of links golf, isn't too bothered whats outside the golf hole and whether he can see the local caravan park. He's more concerned about the quality of turf, the micro undulations than whether theres a nice big dune flanking the fairway. He's also got a good idea that even if the 2nd hole has the same compass direction as the 7th, that the wind will have changed by the time he gets there.

Now, let the firing begin 

Niall

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Do most of you think that at some stage those things have less influence on your appreciation of a course? The land, surroundings and views?

I think David asked a very good question and in my case the answer is yes.

My post-BUDA itinerary concluded with Lytham, Formby, Southport & Ainsdale and Birkdale. I (and most people) would expect Birkdale to top off a great week, but I found Lytham much more interesting. It didn't matter that I couldn't see the sea or that it is enclosed by houses on all sides. I have more admiration for Lytham now, because I see what a great job was done with an inferior site. The view from the clubhouse in underwhelming to say the least, but Lytham isn't about views and scenery. It's about what's on the ground; the 200+ bunkers, the artificial mounds, the angled and raised greens, and the demanding drives. I also don't mind that it's doesn't feel like a typical links, as it plays like one anyway. As Darwin said, "it's a beast, but just a beast". Lytham demonstrates that with a mildly interesting piece of land, anything is possible. I think it should be studied and used as an example of what can be achieved with a little imagination. I loved it.

I haven't played Muirfield, but I know I would like it for the same reasons.

[David Davis]

Niall,

Thanks. My second passport is Dutch and that allows me to ride the political fence whenever I need to. However in this case what are you going to call me? I'm from the US, Oregon, the wild west where we have rugged beautiful terrain that makes modern architects famous. We also have some of the most amazing views on the planet. However, I learned to play golf in The Netherlands and like England and probably Scotland we also have our share of ugly golf courses. Only with the added bonus that they have poor architecture as well. Nearly all the courses have a highway running next to them or an airport or some kind of ugly obtrusive irritation. Nearly all of them are flat.

My home course is a very undulated links with amazing views. I'm spoiled, yes perhaps. You know part of me loves beauty and the aesthetic value of views around and on golf courses. Cruden Bay, Dornoch, Turnberry, Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart yes what's not to love. I also have the fault of loving beautiful women (we can call it a tragic flaw if you like). I know my friends in the UK don't always share this kind of pickiness and often go out on the town when they are young and single with the motto,"go ugly early". So yes I completely understand how this can apply to adults in the UK and golf courses as well.

The American in me loves natural beauty on golf courses and women, in fact these two things are very comparable. If I can't have the natural beauty I lean towards artificial aesthetic enhancements. Of course this is tougher as far as golf courses are concerned and clearly if we look at any list of the top 100 in the world or top 100 in the British Isles you will see that it might not be all about location but if we play percentages it certainly has a huge influence. That being said Muirfield is not ugly in my opinion and I didn't infer that I only asked the question if in time some of you more experienced fellas have come to not allow the overwhelming external beauty that some golf courses with great architecture also have influence your judgement in some way. Like, oh well those beautiful mountains/sea/rock formations, views don't count.

And no, I'm not a huge fan of caravan parks, housing developments, freeways, airports, train tracks or electric lines running through or alongside of golf courses. If I wanted that I'd take up football (soccer).

[Mark Chaplin]

I'm not saying if Muirfield is value, but it's £20 more than Kingsbarns and £25 more than Castle Stuart and about 200 years more in pedigree.

[Sean_A]

I'm not saying if Muirfield is value, but it's £20 more than Kingsbarns and £25 more than Castle Stuart and about 200 years more in pedigree.

Pedigree?  We aren't talking about show dogs.  I know you are impressed by all the blue blood fuzz, but can we try to keep the peerage out of this discussion?

Ciao

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