What's the fuss about Muirfield?

[allysmith]

Hi Ronan,

I love the variety of Challenge that Muirfield offers a golfer of ANY ability. As a kid I grew up playing the likes of Dornoch, Nairn(which is way better than Dornoch), Moray, Montrose, St Andrews...... all these could be described as classic Links.
Muirfield is Special. Its a transitional course from Links to Heath and as such has managed to capture to essence of both.

Bob Huntly asks does it stir the soul. It does more than that it stirs the souls, marinades it and leaves a flavour never to be forgotten

I can only agree with he comments on variety of challenge, differing wind conditions, beautiful grass, fantastic welcome and friendly staff.

Muirfield is where Shivas Irons should have met Bobby Jones in the ultimate challenge

[allysmith]

Hi Ronan,

I love the variety of Challenge that Muirfield offers a golfer of ANY ability. As a kid I grew up playing the likes of Dornoch, Nairn(which is way better than Dornoch), Moray, Montrose, St Andrews...... all these could be described as classic Links.
Muirfield is Special. Its a transitional course from Links to Heath and as such has managed to capture to essence of both.

Bob Huntly asks does it stir the soul. It does more than that it stirs the souls, marinades it and leaves a flavour never to be forgotten

I can only agree with he comments on variety of challenge, differing wind conditions, beautiful grass, fantastic welcome and friendly staff.

Muirfield is where Shivas Irons should have met Bobby Jones in the ultimate challenge

[Bob_Huntley]

Ally Smith.

Nairn better than Dornoch? Rich Goodale's good blade will carve your casque for such blasphemy.

[Geoff_Nourse]

Ally

I haven't played Nairn but was fortunate enough to play Dornoch in the Burghfield Open this year and have to say that I think that it's the finest course I've played in Scotland so far. It is a fantastic course, and has the buckets of charcater that, in my opinion, Muirfield lacks. Dornoch, for me, is an enjoyable course that is playable for the multitudes, not just the proficient few a la Muirfield.

[ForkaB]

Bob

Muirfield can be pretentious, but so can any other golf club in the world.  They just carry it off much better than most.  That's part of its charm.

PS--Ally is entitled to his opinion.

[Mike_Clayton]

Darren
I absolutely agree that it is crazy to credit a course with increased architectual merit simply because it has an impressive group of winners.
Muirfield was indeed a shot away from giving us Rodger Davis (one of my best mates on the tour by the way)Thomas Levet  Dave Thomas and Fred Bullock.All fantastic players who would have done nothing to alter the merits or demerits of the course had they made an extra putt.

[Brian Phillips]

Hi Ronan,

I love the variety of Challenge that Muirfield offers a golfer of ANY ability. As a kid I grew up playing the likes of Dornoch, Nairn(which is way better than Dornoch), Moray, Montrose, St Andrews...... all these could be described as classic Links.
Muirfield is Special. Its a transitional course from Links to Heath and as such has managed to capture to essence of both.

Bob Huntly asks does it stir the soul. It does more than that it stirs the souls, marinades it and leaves a flavour never to be forgotten

I can only agree with he comments on variety of challenge, differing wind conditions, beautiful grass, fantastic welcome and friendly staff.

Muirfield is where Shivas Irons should have met Bobby Jones in the ultimate challenge

Ally,

If you think that Muirfield is a transition between links and heather courses then you need to play the heather courses again because it is nothing of the sort.  Muirfield does not even come close to a heathland course..

....and you are the first person I have had the pleasure of discussing architecture that says Nairn is better than Dornoch. The greens might be in better condition but a better course..please explain.

And what variety does the course offer that no one hear has yet explained?

and if you think that Muirfield have polite and friendly staff...you are again one of the first to say so.....you are not a member by any chance..?

Brian

[Paul_Turner]

I can understand why people don't find the terrain or scenery at Muirfield very interesting.  But isn't it one of the best designs ever?  I might be Colt biased, but I think he did a brilliant job of building holes with individual character on a good, but not great piece of land: take the 17th for example!  Isn't this a hallmark of a great golf course architect?

And at least the course has an individual character; I can't think of a course much like it.

[Darren_Kilfara]

I can understand why people don't find the terrain or scenery at Muirfield very interesting.  But isn't it one of the best designs ever?  I might be Colt biased, but I think he did a brilliant job of building holes with individual character on a good, but not great piece of land: take the 17th for example!  Isn't this a hallmark of a great golf course architect?

Oddly enough, I was going to cite the 17th as probably the most unique hole on the golf course - the use of the huge mound to the right of the green dominates the strategy of the approach, especially when the pin is on the right side of the green, in much the same way that mounds are used at more spectacular courses like, say, Cruden Bay. In that sense, I think the hole stands out from most of the others.

Ally, what's your handicap, if you don't mind me asking? I'd guess from what you've written in this thread that it was pretty low...

Cheers,
Darren

[ForkaB]

redanman

Just to let you know, I've played with Ronan and he is a fast player as well as a reasonably good (legitimate 4 HCP) one.  He obviously just had a bad hair day at Muirfield...........(insert smiley face here).

[Brian Phillips]

Paul,

I agree that Muirfield is a fantastic design and the more I think about it the thing that is influencing myself and others that were not impressed with is the 'maintenance meld' of the course.

The heavy rough is probably cut way closer than it was ever intended.  The rye grass there is so thick it doesn't look like a links course.  It looks more like a parkland course with pot bunkers.

The land at Muirfield is more fertile than at most other links courses in Britain and will be affected even more now with the global change in rainfall.  The increase in rainfall that is predicted in Britain is going to make this course even greener than what it is now.  This will make the rough even thicker than today which IMHO is to it's detriment.

I have to chuckle when I think how much money has been invested in irrigation by these links courses or the years...some of the haven't used them extensively for years.

Rich,

I haven't asked Ronan how he played yet but I like you am wondering what sort of day he had scorewise.

Brian

[Ronan_Branigan]

Redanman

The merit of a good golf course is one that is playable for all and for me Muirfield is not. It is set up to suit the low golfer. By the way have you ever played it? If not I suggest you do before you comment on it.

To Brian and Rich.

I had a reasonable golfing day. We started on the back nine and was 3 over for that nine with a lost ball on the twelfth. I dropped a shot on one, four, lost a ball on five and bogeyed nine. Finished with 78 in a mild to stiff breeze. But halfway through our second nine I became bored with the course probably because we spent so much time in the rough looking for balls! At one point I took a glance across the course and every other fourball seems to be in the same position. This confirms my point that a course should be playable for all and should be fun. Muirfield is not at the moment due to the rough and unfortunately this is your lasting impression of the course, not the routing or the design, as it should be.

Ally or whoever made the comment about it being a transition between links and heathland needs to play a heathland course to see exactly what one looks like!

As brian already mentioned the fact that the soil is more fertile at Muirfield than most other links and with the present climatic conditons I feel that if anything the rough will become worse. When speaking to the Superintendent he mentioned that they are trying to deal with the problem by harvesting the rough therefore eliminating mineralisation of the cut rough back into the soil. As such they hope to decrease the nutrient status of the soil.

On the point of water, muirfield has irrigation in the rough and on the fairways but none on the greens or tees. For these, they simply have hand watering points to irrigate when necessary. I'm not sure about anyone else but this seems slightly strange to me. Why have irrigation in the rough?

[Brian Phillips]

Redanman,

See you are wrong again...

We saw a couple of women playing the course the day i walked the course.  I know of a friend who is a woman that is playing the course in August.  Muirfield allows women to play the course they are just not allowed in the clubhouse.

I played PV last year as you know.  Jeremy my design partner also played the course.  He hit nearly every tee shot in the waste areas in front.  He then played his 5 wood out of the waste area and carried on.  

The point Ronan is making which many of you seem to be ignoring is that they spent half the day looking for balls in the rough.

The players that played that day are not bad players and I mean that, they are reasonable golfers, you all would enjoy a round with them.  However, the good design of the course or routing is apparently ruined by the harsh rough put in by the club or greenkeeper to keep up the name.

I have played Royal Aberdeen a couple of times and in bad weather.  I don't think you can compare them.  The first nine keeps your ball in play with dunes on both sides of the fairways and then the back does get tough but there is no real rough to lose your ball in.

Rich says that you should hit it straight at Muirfield.  Well, what if you can't?  What if like me you do spray the ball a bit on a bad day (or even on good days) and end up losing upteen balls because of rough put in by the club or greenkeeper?

All Ronan is saying (and if some of you listen) is how can a course be classed as no. 1 in Britain when not all types of player can enjoy themselves.  

If anyone mentions Pine Valley in comparison then they have either not played there or have not understood what fun is on a golf course.  Pine Valley's fairways are as wide as 3 Muirfield fairways so don't even comapre them!!

Brian.

[Ronan_Branigan]

Redanman

Sorry if I appeared to be snotty, I didn't mean to come across like that. As brian mentioned in his post, my quibble with Muirfield is not the design but the rough and you don't seem to be picking up on that point. If you cast your mind to the 8th hole. To me the strategy of that hole is now lost due to rough encroaching around the bunkers on the right hand side of the fairway. No longer is it true to what I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, is the original risk/reward strategy.

I feel that Muirfield probably enjoys the reputation regarding the rough and all the talk about it. Adds another string to their bow.

What is your opinion solely about the rough, not about the design. Do you think that Colt would aggree with the way it, the rough, is now?

If your over this way some time maybe we should play it together, sit down afterwards and have a pint and a chat about it.

[Paul_Turner]

Hasn't the rough at Muirfield been horendous for quite some time?  It certainly was when I played there last, in '95.  But is it much narrower now?  I don't like the sound of rough encroaching into the cross bunkers on the 8th.  The rough was originally introduced to stop Hagen(?) driving to the right of the fairway bunkers.  

I thought you've been having a dry spell in the UK?  I was hoping to see Sandwich burned and yellow, come July.

[Mark_F]

From the discussion, it appears Muirfield is a "technically" good course in which you need to everything reasonably well to score well.

In other words, Seve probably hates/hated it, Faldo undoubtably loves it.

[Darren_Kilfara]

FWIW, if you want to see Muirfield with sane amounts of rough, play the course when I did - in March. Probably won't be very hard and fast, but it'll be a lot more forgiving of wayward shots...

Cheers,
Darren

[GeoffreyC]

I'm with Paul Turner and his admitted bias  

There may not be great scenery but Muirfield has the rest of the package (as described by others) including great routing great bunker looks and placement, a teriffic set of greens (for a windy links- only TOC and Dornich come to mind with a better set)  and great individual golf holes.

I personally did have my "soul stirred" by playing all the par 3's and 5's. The 17th is in my opinion one of the great par 5's in golf and one of the best uses of an echelon of cross bunkers I can think of.

It may (does) lack the quirk and charm of a Cruden Bay that yields "fun golf" but it more then makes it up in other ways.

[Marty Bonnar]

I tend to agree with Ronan and Geoff re Muirfield - I find it visually bland and rather characterless. I did like the green complexes though and the hilariously small bunkers - most excellent!

As for the 'Social' qualities of the place, I'd better steer well clear.....a working-class Scottish background prevents me from holding an unbiased opinion!!!! and they might ask me to do a re-design one day.......Aye, Right!!! (as we say over here)

Brian
Women can play as guests of members - I think you'll agree the threesome we witnessed were of 'dubious' ability??? Was it four or five shots to reach the fairway off the first???

In summing up, I would have to admit that much of my opinion is based on the fact that I stood in a dog turd within ten minutes of arriving at the place.....

FBD

[allysmith]

Guys,

Sorry I haven't got back sooner but I was playing on a great wee course at Leven. Fine linksy turf and greens that are like lightening compared to most in cotland at this time of year.

in answer to some of your comments:

1. Rich, thanks for acknowleging my right of opinion. I appreciate the sentiment I assure you that I have played both Nairn and Dornoch many times with some success.I have been lucky enough to win two open tournaments on the latter. I rate Nairn higher because of the variety of challenge and the consistency of quality of the challenge. I find Dornoch a little bland from 10 through 15 and Im not sure the 17th is a hole befitting such a fantastic course.

2. My opinions are my own and I will rest at that.

3. The statement that for a course to be a number 1 in Britain it must be capable of being played by all standards of golfer is utter crap. One should strive to improve ones play in order that one reaches a standard where true appreciation is derived. All standard of golfer may play the course but it may be that the pleasure derived fromn the play increaese with the level of ability. Why should that be wrong. Isuspect that this is the kind of nonsense that brought about he birth of Handicap Club Champions. It just political correctness gon mad.

4. My comments on the social aspects of Muirfield stick. When we played there we were treated with respect and dignity befitting such a club. We were welcomed into the members dining room at lunch. The food was fantastic and the atmosphere friendly. I wonder if Brian Ewen and Fatbaldydrummer expect to be welcomed at the door by slinky girls in low cut dresses, have their manky old footjoys returned to pristine condition, Greeted with a bellowed hello from the Captain in a boiler suit and steel toe-capped boots and then ushered onto the first tee by suitably subservient prolls bowing at every second step.
I repeat my statement that the Staff at Muirfied were polite and friendly without you wanting to invite them to a family get together for a god old bevvy as the drummer may wish.

Money can't buy dignity or a membership at Muirfield.The members I met had both.
Don't knock them just because they may have a few quid.
Before anyone asks I am a humble Council Civil Engineer with an overdraft.

[allysmith]

Darren,

Im right with you on the 17th. Its a fine hole indeed.

I'm a bit lost however in discussing spectacular setings.

I dont think the quality of a course has anything to do with the setting. The overall enjoyment may be enhanced but the course remains the same.

Cruden Bay is the perfect example of a fairly humdrum course in a fantastic setting. It has probably two of the worst holes in golfdom. The 14th and the 15th.

The fourteenth  is a blind shortis par 4 with a soup bowl green that needs to be described from the tee. A great shot lands close and a crappy run up does the same. The weaknesses of the 14th fade into insignificance with the ridiculousnes of the next. A blind dog-leg par three. give me a break!!

Cruden Bay is all very nice but it is NOT one of Scotlands great links. I wonder if you could really rank it above courses such as Montrose, Royal Aberdeen, Moray 1 & 2, Elgin etc. all les than 50 miles away.

By he way has ANYONE else played or even heard of Elgin G.C. It is a pure gem.

[Brian Phillips]

Ally,

Fair and honest comments.

I have heard of Elgin because I know someone that might be getting the job to improve this year.

Brian

[ForkaB]

Ally

Be careful what you say about Cruden Bay.  There are many on this site who revere the place and will defend it to the death, although I am not one of them.  Nevertheless, I do think it is as good as Old Moray, and better than the New.  Your comments on 14 and 15 are spot on.  I think a much better course could have been built if Simpson had eschewed the climb up the hill to the 9th and used the land on which the St. Olaf course was built for a compact pure links.  Of course, I've only played it once (as is also the case for me at Nairn--another course that did not particularly stir my soul) so I may be wrong.........

[Marty Bonnar]

Guys,

Sorry I haven't got back sooner but I was playing on a great wee course at Leven. Fine linksy turf and greens that are like lightening compared to most in cotland at this time of year.


4. My comments on the social aspects of Muirfield stick. When we played there we were treated with respect and dignity befitting such a club. We were welcomed into the members dining room at lunch. The food was fantastic and the atmosphere friendly. I wonder if Brian Ewen and Fatbaldydrummer expect to be welcomed at the door by slinky girls in low cut dresses, have their manky old footjoys returned to pristine condition, Greeted with a bellowed hello from the Captain in a boiler suit and steel toe-capped boots and then ushered onto the first tee by suitably subservient prolls bowing at every second step.
I repeat my statement that the Staff at Muirfied were polite and friendly without you wanting to invite them to a family get together for a god old bevvy as the drummer may wish.

Ally
Which wee Leven course? The Links or Scoonie?? Leven Links could be one of the finest tracks in Scotland, couldn't it? With a wee cash infusion AND the removal of the Coonsul's interest????

And while I'm here....
Maybe you've landed on a new marketing ploy for our ailing Scottish golf courses. Slinky girls in low-cut dresses? I could see that working at Balbirnie.........if we could find any in sunny Fife-shire!!!!

BUT I must take exception at your ill-considered jibe at the condition of my footly apparel. MY Footjoys have NEVER been either OLD nor MANKY (For the benefit of our colonial brethren, old Scots word meaning grubby). I demand you withdraw that comment or it'll be "Heh, You, Ootside, NOW!!!!"

FBD.

[allysmith]

Rich,

Thanks for the tip. I too love Cruden Bay. One of my friends is the Pro and I'm sure Robbie wouldn't appreciate my earlier remarks. But I stick by my views on 14 & 15.
Using the St. Olaf to augment the existing layout is a stroke of genius.
How about ditching the 8th and 9th, constructing a new hole from the 8th Tee to the 14th Green(or there abouts) Moving the 10th tee down the hill a bit?? and puling three new holes out of the St Olaf to connect back in at he existing 16th?

I really must get an aerial photo out and sketch a couple of ideas for you guys to lampoon.

FBD. Nae offence on the Footjoys Big Man. I just thought a wee buff up with a bit o Cherry Blossom wis the very Dab .

I agree TOTALy that with a decent bit of investment Leven Links could be one of the Great Scottish courses. Carefull with the terminology Fife is a kingdom not a  ::)shire!!!

Ive heard Lyle Anderson is sinking a pile into Ayrshire. Maybe the regeneration of a links like Leven would be money better spent.

What do he other guys think???