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les_claytor

Ohio Golf
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Valuegolfer, Sorry for the typo but I did mean Clearview in Canton.  I know it's a stretch to compare it to SFGC, but it's the first course that came to my mind. They are really polar opposites. SFGC is an exclusive course intricately designed by a master with endless beauty.  Clearview at first glance is a austere track almost hand made by an black man with both blinding determination and brave vision.What lead me to compare the two is the beauty and sacred nature of the sites, the pure routings, and the design of the greens.  I think SFGC would still be a great course without what I consider the country's best bunkering because the greens are sloped in such a manner that the pin placements dictate strategy (I went around over a hundred times as a caddy, golfer, and artist during grad school and know it really well).  In Clearview, a bunkerless and non-irrigated course (I keep wanting to say Clearwater bcs they tap in to acquifers  to water the greens), the only defense is the natural routing and the large sharply sloping greens. After playing Clearview, I was blown away with the intricate strategies developed solely from routing and green design.Anyway, I was as much impressed with the spirit of place at Clearview as I have been at say North Berwick or SFGC. Maybe I was just blown away with the personal accomplishment, but Cleaview is definitely a great example of "less is more", minimalist design.

Tommy_Naccarato

Leven and Lundin Links
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Rich, The 18th at Lundin Golf Club is a product of Old Tom Morris, after the two clubs made their split. I will have to dig deep into the memory banks to remember which holes are Braids and which are Morris's, but rest assured, it will be forthcoming!

ForkaB

Leven and Lundin Links
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
TommyThat's exactly what I said (with a few tyops) in my last post!  I know it is late, but I'm used to being plagiarized on this site after a month or two has passed, but not in a New York minute ........My source tells me that the current 1 and 2 and 17 and 18 at Lundin are unchanged.  They would have been 8, 9, 10 and 11 on Old Tom's course.Night, Night

les_claytor

Ohio Golf
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Just thought of another funny comparison between SFGC and Clearview, the entry experience.At SFGC, the course is located on the edge of the city near the Ocean and the Olympic, Lake Merced and Harding courses. You turn of the freeway, up past the church and immediately are greated by the 18th fairway and the awesome bunkering of infinite variety.  Down to the the lovely tudor clubhouse and pro shop of perfect scale.  From the first and tenth tees we see a vast array of bunkering and lovely rolling fairways and are certain we're in store for one of the world's finest courses.On the other hand, Clearview is located in the small town of East Canton I belive.  Located off a county road, a big 60's sign more fitting of a diner signals our arrival.  Down a sharp slope and we see the plain par three 2nd and 11th, and drive nervously between the first and tenth fairways in the line of fire. Hmmm, looks like a dog track.  Flat greens on grade, no bunkers, narrow stream, is this what we've driven all this way for? Have no fear, the course grows on you.Like I said, polar opposites.  It's funny but courses with unimpressive entrance experiences almost improve your impressions after playing bcs your expectations are lower. What did Sam Snead say after first seeing the Old Course?

Paul_Daley

Why do So Many Golf Magazines Fail?
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Neil:Please put me on your list as a subscriber.Thank you.

RT

Humps and Hollows at Royal Mid Surrey
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Tommy,On the current task list for Northwood no. 10.    The colour pic is taken from Inner 9th fairway looking towards the left hand side of no. 2 Outer; Tommy's older middle image are the mounds located to the right hand side of the 2nd Outer fairway.  Top image chasm is no. 6 Outer, in front of the green, looking towards the abutting the Royal Botanic Kew Gardens, and the bottom picture is looking back across the same chasm on no. 6 Outer in reverse.

Ben Cowan-Dewar

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Is a bunker superfluous if it comes into play for the 28 handicapper, but not the scratch golfer?I am not a fan of mass bunkering, but the bunker in front of the fairway undoubtedly makes the 28 handicapper think.  For the scratch golfer it is not a concern. I guess I am looking for someone to tell me whether beautiful bunkers that do not come into play for the better golfer are superfluous?

Tommy_Naccarato

Humps and Hollows at Royal Mid Surrey
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
It's about time! I will try to get some more color shots of Royal Mid-Surrey taken by the famed RT at a later date when I get some scanner problems figured out and I actually get a moment to do some stuff for Dick Daley and Patrick Mucci. I haven't forgotten you guys!

Tommy_Naccarato

Leven and Lundin Links
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Another hole that is unchanged is the 4th which rides the oceanside berm/dune. The bunker has evolved horribly and if you don't believe me, just take a look sometime in Horace Hutchinson's circa 1896, British Golf Links What once existed there was a pretty mean looking bunker with all kinds of rough and knarly edges that would make Jeff Bradley cringe with delight!  (Jeff, I hope you are reading this!)I love talking about great links in Great Britain! We seem to go through this every certain time of year, and thankfully it is upon us again!

Jim Reilly

Humps and Hollows at Royal Mid Surrey
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Tiny,I knew you were taking a chance letting Paul post this without first feeding Tommy his sacrifice of pics of Death or Glory.Tommy,In our defense, when we have some free time, it's pretty damn hard to get us out of Surrey.  Now we could probably have done it after recent rounds at Sunningdale, Walton Heath or even Swinley Forest, but RT has this little jazz club he likes to take us to; and then we get to hashing out the days events and the course we just played and, well, by the time we're through we all have to take the train back.RT does remind me of our unfulfilled mission every time we get together though.  I think its moving to the top of the list!

TEPaul

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Ben:You're looking for someone to tell you that bunkers that do not come into play for better golfers are superfluous? I'm sure there are plenty of people (who hopefully are getting on in years now) who would be happy to tell you that. They're the ones who have removed many of the bunkers of some great architects (ie, Donald Ross) over the last fifty years. Their reasoning is if doesn't effect their game it doesn't have any point. Have you ever heard of a more selfish attitude and a more short sighted one? This design stuff, even from a guy like Ross, is probably not an exact science though and there is much to consider otherwise. It's likely that even Donald Ross did not sit on a particular hole or with his topo and agonize for hours if a bunker should go here or there for some 28 handicapper. There is probably much more than we realize or would like to admit about the practicalities of construction methods, certainly in the old days. A month or so ago GeoffShac speculated on here that the reason for a particular bunker here or there might have strategic value and it could also be an integration feature too, I suppose, but it could just as likely be a result of just grabbing some fill that was needed nearby. The original top shot bunkers at my course, for instance. Looking at some of their sizes and shapes it appears to be about the same amount of removed fill as it took to construct the tees that were only 100 yards behind them!Or even look at some classic green structures like #3 Merion, even NGLA's Redan, or the much more common green like GMGC's #5 on the usual sideslope. The enormous bunkers that are generally to one side of them are probably as much to provide what it took to prop up that side of the green for a necessary grade for putting, to provide the necessary fill it took to do it as much as strategic value.

T_MacWood

Ohio Golf
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
LouThe Golf Club hasn't changed since 1978, but I think our perceptions may have. When I first saw the course around that time I thought it was extremely radical, today it seems unbelievably natural. I'd place Double Eagle after TGC, MVGC and Scioto, infront of OSU-Scarlet.

T_MacWood

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
The problem with the term eye candy is that everyone has different definition of what it means. One person thinks it is the views, another superflous bunkering (what is superflous is also open to debate), and for another it is all aesthetics. If a bunker plays an important stategic roll, even though it might be an apparent (directional, mis-directional, stimulating exhiliration) how can it be considered eye candy?

TEPaul

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Brett:"Triangulation" is just a simple routing technique to get the direction of golf holes angled away from basic side to side parallelism--something that most of the old architects tried to avoid (side to side parallelism) with their routings if at all possible--and that was a simple method of doing it. Obviously if the particular site was extremely limited it wasn't possible or was less so.But if you think of a triangle, you can see that routing this way was subjecting the site to a certain loss of land for golf but if you narrowed the green to tee walks it would be less so (the top or point of the triangle as opposed to the base). Obviously this must have been done more for safety than variety or something like "boxing the compass".Close green to tee proximity can be tricky business, I realize, but a good architect can keep things close if he's logical and realistic, in my opinion. In other words, this can be done really well if the next hole is going in a particular direction. If the next hole is coming back anywhere near opposite the direction from the last hole, then you have a bigger problem, although this is the situation to get into some clever "triangulation".I'm not denying the concern for liability issues at all---it's a very real one and certainly today and is definitely a large function of the particular use of the course (50,000 rounds would be handled differently than 15,000 rounds). I've actually done a considerable amount of research on the liabiliy of golfers (or others) getting hit by golf balls and it's an interesting one in the overall logic of the law as it applies to safety (or lack of it) on golf courses.In any case some people get overly concerned about safety issues from time to time in my opinion only because they focus only on proximity issues and sometimes forget to consider what is likely to happen or not on a particular hole or given particular  situations. Gil Hanse for instance melded green to chipping area into next tee very close on three holes at Applebrook. On two of those holes the next tee is behind the green where balls are much less likely to be traveling quickly. This is far safer than two tight side by side fairways with LZs in the same basic area.As an example of how basic proximity alone scares people, we have two tee boxes at GMGC that almost connect but the holes go in 180 degree opposite directions. The tees are so close that golfers will wait for the other hole to tee off simply because of noise and proximity.We were looking to pick up yardage on both holes so I recommended in a total membership meeting to simply put the back tee marker on the front of the tees of the opposite hole. This costs absolutely nothing and would pick up about 90 total yards. Well about twenty people jumped up together and said: "What are you crazy, people will be killed!!" But I said golfers on both these tees wait for alternate tee off now and have since the beginning of this club and is it reasonable to expect that although balls will be coming in opposite directions that golfers will really stand within about 30-90 yards of each other in plain view and fire golf balls directly at each other. That's totally obvious so they all simultaneously said, "Oh yeah" and sat down.Anyway, liability issues are very real but situations are more important to analyze than just proximity, in my opinion.  

Chris_Hunt

Leven and Lundin Links
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Thanks all for the info.  The club historian is getting back to me as well, so we shall see what he has to say about the matter. My top 5 favorite 18th's in Scotland, fyi:LongniddryMuirfieldElieCrail BalcomieDornoch

Mark_Fine

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Good comments by all!Tom,Regarding the eye candy definition, that's why I use the "contact with the ball" aspect.  It works for me!Mark

TEPaul

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
If you were Coore and Crenshaw standing looking at Sand Hills pre-construction and you saw beautiful natural bunker shapes and such spread out all across the landscape would you call that "eye candy"? And then you built the golf course and looked again and saw some of those natural bunker shapes that were not in play on any  particular hole or for any particular level of golfer, would you then call them "eye candy"? I very much doubt it!

T_MacWood

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
I agree with Tom Paul, 'eye candy' is an idiotic term.

BY

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
One word - Safety!It has nothing to do with having 18 separate, spectacular holes.

BarnyF

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Tom Macwood,To say trees block the wind is short sighted. Trees of unequal shape and density shape the wind in their own individual manner.  Do you think wind sees a tree and stops in fear..or do you think it uses its energy to bend branches shake leaves and then with what energy remains pass through at either a different direction or less speed.  Why does a flag blow one way while the wind at your ball blows another.  Why when even finding the fairway your approaches in a wooded area are different types of shots than in an open area.  It seems to be a common use of stategy among better players to observe the wind movements at the top of the trees and the flag in choosing a shot shape.Why do we "the purist" think the great architects of the "Golden Age" didn't know trees grow.  Don't you think they had the vision to understand what the mature height of many of the trees in their original design were.  Don't you think they had the hope their design would still be enjoyed when the existing trees reached maturity.  Anyone with vision...a common trait among great architects...that works with nature knows it is changing enviornment and takes joy in the knowledge that a growing tree changes stategy with each foot it grows.

Tommy_Naccarato

Humps and Hollows at Royal Mid Surrey
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Poet,(Jim)You SOB! Your education continues to grow and prosper whilst I'm forced to listen daily from work companions how Tustin Ranch is as good as they come.Just to think you lived on the course!There the cats out of the bag! Everyone on GCA, Jim Reilly lived on a Ted Robinson course! (One of the worst ones too!)Serves you right for getting all of the great stuff while I'm still stuck with the dreck! I hope they don't let you on Sunningdale ever again for that one!Come home Jim and Bianca.

Tommy_Naccarato

Leven and Lundin Links
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Chris, if it was via email from the web site, expect it to be a very long time!I had some questions I asked him once and about 6-8 months later he got back to me. I think it was that long for him to check his email!You all should be shallacked for not having St. Andrews on the TOP of the list. Especially you Goodale!

BillV

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
HTe answer is likely Applebrook.  I can think of 3 instances where you can putt from the next tee back onto the previous green due to "meld".

Scott_Burroughs

Post WWII course with the shortest green to tee walks?
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
LuLu has the shortest "meld" I've ever seen, between #5 green and #6 back tee.  Just a couple yards separate the green from the teeing area.

RobertWalker

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
I started a thread about EYE CANDY several months ago. (I know it is back there somewhere)The term EYE CANDY is just another way to insult someone's bunkering.EYE CANDY clever

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