[Ed Brzezowski]

I wonder if Melvyn is still lurking, this would get his heart pounding.

I guess some folks don't like the mystery of a golf course, the bounces good and bad. Have been playing a lot of simulator golf while rehabbing a new set of knees. It's nothing like playing Prestwick or TOC in real life. Just wondering about the lines of play makes the game great.

Will see Tom in a week or so, may ask what he thought about the question. I think he will be amused at the time delay.

[Keith OHalloran]

Not so much mystery these days especially with the web and technology - photos galore, reviews, googlemaps etc.

That is why so much of the modern technology [rangefinders et al.] is abhorrent to those of us who value a little bit of mystery.

Imagine hunting if you could track your prey with GPS.  Would there be any point to it?

I think that most fishermen use Fish spotting technology. I wonder if they think it is less sporting?

[Jim Tang]

I actually stumbled across this old thread while research Royal County Down.  I'm trying to finish up plans to get out there.  I'm hoping to have multiple rounds on the course.  How many rounds do those of you who have played it think it will take to even begin to understand how to play the holes efficiently?

Mac -

I only played one round at RCD during a 10 day trip to Ireland.  Only playing the course once is probably my greatest regret for that trip.  The vast beauty of the course combined with trying to learn the strategy of the holes is too overwhelming for just one round.

If I did it again I think 4 rounds would be a good number, assuming cost is not a factor (it would be for me). 

There is a lot going on at RCD; the tee ball is crucial, and with so many blind drives it takes at least 2 or 3 rounds to even begin to understand where the holes go and how they should be played.  Knowing where to miss greens and where not to miss them is also key, since there are so many steep drop offs around the greens which can pull a poorly executed approach shot dramatically away from the putting surface.

Obviously, you won't know everything there is to know about the course after just four rounds, but, you'll have some rudimentary knowledge that could be applied to the 4th round which would help you to better enjoy the course and score.

It is a special place.  Enjoy.

[Tom_Doak]

I think that most fishermen use Fish spotting technology. I wonder if they think it is less sporting?

Nah, I'm sure even the people who catch fish in a barrel manage to define it as "sporting".  But they have a very low standard.

[Mac Plumart]

Keith/Tom...

I think that comes down to mindset.  I've played with lasers (in fact most of the time) and it is great.  I've also played when we dont use yardage books, lasers, or look at the yardage markers on the course and truly eyeball it.  Its all good, in my book.

[Tom_Doak]

Keith/Tom...

I think that comes down to mindset.  I've played with lasers (in fact most of the time) and it is great.  I've also played when we dont use yardage books, lasers, or look at the yardage markers on the course and truly eyeball it.  Its all good, in my book.

But which had more element of mystery?

[RJ_Daley]

Not so much mystery these days especially with the web and technology - photos galore, reviews, googlemaps etc.

That is why so much of the modern technology [rangefinders et al.] is abhorrent to those of us who value a little bit of mystery.

Imagine hunting if you could track your prey with GPS.  Would there be any point to it?

I think that most fishermen use Fish spotting technology. I wonder if they think it is less sporting?

Fish spotting?  Heck yeah it is less sporting.  I grew up on the lakes in Madison Wi.  Those lakes were excellent fishing in pre50s that I don't remember,  and 50s and 60s I fished them most.  You learned to read the lakes and bottoms.  In those days you could actually see 10-20 feet in clear water.  You watched the wave chop, and you learned the depths in certain places or tested the depth with your anchor rope, etc. You learned where there were sandbars, rock ledges, and muck bottoms. There was no Lowrance or other fish locators.  If you were a successful fisherman, you had both hand-eye technique and touch, and you read the lake.  That is a whole lot like golf. That has got to be like GPS rangefinders, technology enhanced ball and clubs and other implements. 

I then got into trout fishing so many of the small meadow streams of SW Wisconsin.  Not so much as a purist fly fisherman.  True pure fly fisherman would think of our type of trout fishing as chump fishing.  Due to the often narrow stretchs of steams down to no more than irrigation ditches, we'd use 4ft ultra light Fenwich cork handle rods and ulra light Abu Garcia reels, 2-4#test line, and 1/16 or 1/8 led headed jigs that we'd tie our own Maribou feathers.  Or we'd occasionally use tiny Panther Martin and Mepps spinners.  You would approach the stream from working up stream, and present an accurate cast past a feature or bank you think might be holding a trout, and jig the bait past making it look like a leech or insect or minnow.  The only aid was actually the polar ray glasses that enabled you to see the fish swing out.  Then all hand-eye to hook the fish.  Filed down barbs on the hook made it more sporting.  Then play a fish in small water with brush and logs to negotiate. 

That is also the same as playing without aids to read the field of play in golf,  Now if I could only read the field of play better and execute what I read.   

[Sean_A]

Seems like most folks are naming courses which have a decent amount of blind/hidden/not obvious features.  Last year these were called quirky courses.  Is there a difference between the two? 

Sheehy - how are WHO/WHN mysterious? 

Mac - depending on your ambitions and time, I think two days (however many holes) is enough to get a decent grip on Co Down.  If you really want to "learn" the course, I would suggest playing the first ball with no aids.  See if you can pick up on clues for the blind shots etc.  Then hit the shots again using the books, gardgets and caddies.  Use crap balls for the first go    Anyway, you learn best by making mistakes.  Also, you will remember holes better if you remember the clues.  Otherwise, Co Down is succession of blind shots, many to narrow fairways with punishing rough awaiting - in other words, much of muchness if you don't zero in on the details.  One of the great things about Co Down is the ease with which one can take the game lightly.  The scenery and texture of the course is superb - these put golf in its place.

Ciao

[Joe Hancock]

OK, I guess I see some analogy between fishing and golf as it pertains to technology. But not much unless, like Dick(welcome back!) you have fond memories of having endless hours available to read the crystal clear waters, and the features that lurk below. For me, a sonar unit provides me w/ a couple pieces of information so I don't spend a whole day on the water just to hear it lap the side of the boat; depth of the water and temperature of the water. Sure, I could stick my arm in the water and approximate, and I could carry a long stick to check depth, but that would be silly. And, even if you see the reflective image of a fish as presented by technology, that doesn't mean you can make it want to bite whatever technology you presented as a lure. The mystery of fishing still exists because we. as humans, aren't in total control of the interaction.

Back to the analogy as it pertains to golf. To want to uncover the mysteries of a golf course takes time. Time is what seems to be golfs looming enemy, and few have the time and other resources($) to devote to the unveiling of the mysterious. Some resort to technological aids to save and savor the time at the course. A laser, a course yardage book....a few days and nights reading of glorious golf courses on golfclubatlas.com, perhaps? Regardless, the mysteries still exist.

Joe

[Mac Plumart]

Joe...

Yes, for me mystery still exists. For a few reasons...

#1. I don't seem to fully comprehend a course from reading about it or seeing pictures.  I dont "get" it until I actually play it and see it first hand and then all the stuff I've read about it begins to make sense.

#2.  Also, courses make me FEEL certain ways.  That is a bit of a mystery in, and of, itself.  Simply driving into the sand hills of Nebraska evokes a feeling, which is specific to that area of the world.  NGLA evokes a specific feeling.  Rivermont a specific feel for me.  In fact, the person who started this thread was the first person who told me to pay attention to how golf courses made me feel and to pay attention to those feelings and try to figure out why I felt that way.  To me unraveling that mystery has led to ecstatic feelings on golf courses.

[V. Kmetz]

Mac,

I appreciate the tenor of your last post:

I feel similarly, in that "Mystery" is experienced in two ways:

1.  the "what?"

and the

2. the "why?"

The first is the more obvious and literal of the two and in golf that can recede with repeat visits. The literally "unknown" always ticks the glands to "fear" and then when the veil is uncovered, the player can react with the new calibration of the senses.  The second "why" question might never be answered...or produce a varying answer depending on the visit, the person, the day, etc.  Also, the "why" question is an internal one, one that doesn't need the agreement of others to be either satisfied or left wanting.

And this is the essence of mystery in more than golf...from Scooby Doo, to Sherlock Holmes to the Kennedy assassination or the story of the resurrection.

I agree (though not as pejoratively as that poster who mentioned it) that "aura" is a different concept.

cheers

vk

[Bill_McBride]

I think Beau Desert, just north of Birmingham in the hills, is the most mysterious course I've ever played.

First, it's the hardest course to find I've ever finally found.  Craig Disher, Mark Bourgeois, and my son David and I literally spent a couple of hours driving in circles until we finally found it, even asking a lovely lady in a restaurant if she had any idea where it was.   "I know where it is, it's just hard to tell you how to find it."   No kidding.

The course itself was mysterious to me, in my one playing, because Herbert Fowler somehow used every fold in the ground to obscure your view of the landing area for the tee shots.  All day I was a little off balance because of that.  A few holes had little angles that made the best lines hard to determine.   

Then the greens!   Beau Desert is laid over hilltop land that was quarried in the 19th Century.  The greens have in many cases had contours created not by the architect but by the subsidence of the land underneath, as the earth continues to settle. 

It's a highly recommended destination, I'd love to get back there.   There's also a nice dormy house so it's a good base for the area. 

[Mac Plumart]

Another note from Tom Paul...

Mac:

I remember advising you to pay close attention to how various golf courses make you feel and perhaps then try to figure out why (isn't this part and parcel of their mysteries?). I look at this process as vaguely subliminal or subconscious, and definitely individualistic. If so, it is up to any of us, individually, to try to make the connections to some kinds of associations, and perhaps even determine why they may be unique to us individually. Given this feeling of mine, I have always resisted the opinions of others who seem to try to proselytize all others into feeling only what they feel. To me resistance to this kind of "opinion consensus" is at the core of what I came to call "The Big World" theory.

[Thomas Dai]

There are some blind and partially sighted golfers. There must be a huge mystery element to the game for these folk, who have my greatest admiration, as do their playing 'guides'.
atb

[Bill Brightly]

Not so much mystery these days especially with the web and technology - photos galore, reviews, googlemaps etc.

That is why so much of the modern technology [rangefinders et al.] is abhorrent to those of us who value a little bit of mystery.

It's funny that you should make this post. This past Saturday I was standing on the right side of the 4th fairway on Streamsong Blue, staring up at the bunker I had to carry into the wind. Could I carry it with a club that had a chance to hold the green? Should I just lay up below the bunkers? Should I hit a long fade to the high right bailout area? Then I took out my range finder and did the math and realized that my four rescue should end up pin high. And I felt guilty, and thought that TD would be ticked at the importance of my rangefinder.

[Sean_A]

Not so much mystery these days especially with the web and technology - photos galore, reviews, googlemaps etc.

That is why so much of the modern technology [rangefinders et al.] is abhorrent to those of us who value a little bit of mystery.

It's funny that you should make this post. This past Saturday I was standing on the right side of the 4th fairway on Streamsong Blue, staring up at the bunker I had to carry into the wind. Could I carry it with a club that had a chance to hold the green? Should I just lay up below the bunkers? Should I hit a long fade to the high right bailout area? Then I took out my range finder and did the math and realized that my four rescue should end up pin high. And I felt guilty, and thought that TD would be ticked at the importance of my rangefinder.

Bill

And folks say range finders don't give golfers that extra data which adds confidence to decision-making 

I still am not noting how mysterious is different from blind/obscured/subtle?  Although, Ace mentions Beau Desert.  It is a tough place to score on, but I think the mystery is really down to playing the course safely - thus removing the mystery    I will grant the greens are still a mystery to me.  I must have played Beau 35 times and I remain perplexed about many of the putts.  Is still contend Beau & Woking have the best sets of greens in England - that I know - but Beau's are much more difficult than Woking's.

Ciao

[Charlie Gallagher]

Mac,
  I played it twice 6 years ago and wish I could have played it even more, but I have a pretty good memory of it. I will repeat things you have heard. The setting is etherial. The routing superbly takes advantage of the topography, at least in my opinion. The greens are often conjoined planes, where sometimes large breaks are hidden. There are a mix of blind holes, where the firm ground can cause run into undesirable locations and hazards. People dump all over 17 and 18 as let down holes, a point I strongly disagree with. The shaggy flashed up bunkers are visually eye catching and penal.  Be ware the effect of wind on your putts, it's more of a factor on this course than any other links I have played.

New Castle is not one of Northern Irelands greatest towns. I remember we had pints at the Three Diamonds and ate at a good local seafood joint up the coast. But the golf, I shall never forget. My favorite links, no question.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

For a non links course, Sunningdale new fits this bill.
The more times I play it the more the little secrets pop up and show me ways to play the various options.
I just wish I played it everyday.
I too miss the illustrious Mr Paul.

[Bill_McBride]

Not so much mystery these days especially with the web and technology - photos galore, reviews, googlemaps etc.

That is why so much of the modern technology [rangefinders et al.] is abhorrent to those of us who value a little bit of mystery.

It's funny that you should make this post. This past Saturday I was standing on the right side of the 4th fairway on Streamsong Blue, staring up at the bunker I had to carry into the wind. Could I carry it with a club that had a chance to hold the green? Should I just lay up below the bunkers? Should I hit a long fade to the high right bailout area? Then I took out my range finder and did the math and realized that my four rescue should end up pin high. And I felt guilty, and thought that TD would be ticked at the importance of my rangefinder.

Bill

And folks say range finders don't give golfers that extra data which adds confidence to decision-making 

I still am not noting how mysterious is different from blind/obscured/subtle?  Although, Ace mentions Beau Desert.  It is a tough place to score on, but I think the mystery is really down to playing the course safely - thus removing the mystery    I will grant the greens are still a mystery to me.  I must have played Beau 35 times and I remain perplexed about many of the putts.  Is still contend Beau & Woking have the best sets of greens in England - that I know - but Beau's are much more difficult than Woking's.

Ciao

Sean, I thought Beau Desert kept you off balance all day.   Maybe it's the subsidence.    Hard to tell with just one play, but I was highly entertained!

[Bill Brightly]

Here is Streamsong Blue #4. I think this photo from their website gives you an idea of how daunting the second shot can be. It is probably one of the most dramatic shots on the property.



And while my range finder allowed me to confidently select a club and I hit is really well, I pulled it slightly and was two yards past pin high in the middle of the green. Since the pin was on the right below the drop off to the back tier, I was essentially dead. I was even with the sharp slope and had to lag across the ridge, knowing the best I could do would be 20 feet under the hole. So TD got even with my rangefinder.

[Bill_McBride]

Here is Streamsong Blue #4. I think this photo from their website gives you an idea of how daunting the second shot can be. It is probably one of the most dramatic shots on the property.



And while my range finder allowed me to confidently select a club and I hit is really well, I pulled it slightly and was two yards past pin high in the middle of the green. Since the pin was on the right below the drop off to the back tier, I was essentially dead. I was even with the sharp slope and had to lag across the ridge, knowing the best I could do would be 20 feet under the hole. So TD got even with my rangefinder.

One thing that makes it so difficult is the natural tendency to avoid the left bunker and wind up in the waste area right.   Then you are well and truly screwed because you have to carry that huge bunker from a sandy lie with a mid iron.  No fair!   

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

I agree but you are talking about the tee shot. I was talking about the second shot, which is intimidating even when you have found the fairway.
And it is more than a mid-iron from that right waste area into the wind we had! In fact, I think that would have been an automatic layup.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

I agree but you are talking about the tee shot. I was talking about the second shot, which is intimidating even when you have found the fairway.
And it is more than a mid-iron from that right waste area into the wind we had! In fact, I think that would have been an automatic layup.

I wasn't trying to imply that I got the mid iron up to the green!

[Mac Plumart]

I'd say Streamsong Blue (heck, both courses) are mysterious in nature.  As alluded to...I think going round Blue with no laser would be a hoot.

[Colin Macqueen]

Mac,
Hence that plaintive call on many a mysterious Scottish golf course. ......."Hoots mon!"

Cheers Colin

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