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TEPaul

Mysterious golf courses
« on: October 26, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
What are some of the most mysterious golf courses to look at and play? I know that some people say a golf course and it's architecture should show you something about itself and maybe even the first time. I really don't buy that at all. So what are some of the courses that give up their mysteries slowly? This to me might be what really good architecture is all about. It doesn't even have to be whole hole mysteries. Maybe just something on the drive, or the approach or even the green or maybe some combination of any of the above here and there. I saw two this year that struck me that way--Royal Portrush and Royal County Down! But the most mysterious all in all still might be NGLA--in real tournament condition!

Mac Plumart

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2014, 08:48:35 PM »
I love courses like the one's Tom describes.

I'd put Dismal Doak in that category.  First time around I thought I had a clue, but subsequent rounds showed me how clueless I was about the courses nuances.

In fact, Dismal Nicklaus is that way as well. 

North Berwick has to be in the discussion as well.  I've only been around once, but some of those holes cry out to be played multiple times...just to comprehend them.

The Old Course, as well.

What do you guys see?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tim Leahy

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2014, 08:53:14 PM »
The Institute.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

paul cowley

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2014, 03:02:38 AM »
The author of this thread says it for me...so how I miss the SOB.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Charlie Gallagher

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2014, 07:18:13 AM »
There's one near Port Lavaca.
Good to hear from the guest commentator.

JNagle

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2014, 10:17:57 AM »
Tom -

The first thought in my mind after reading your post is, which ones do not have some mystery about them.  That is, those that were built by quality designers and many of the ODG's.  Studying, playing and working on so many classic courses, even those designed by a second tier designer of that bygone era have mysteries that cannot be seen in one round or tour of the course.  They are only revealed after years and years of playing and putting the greens.  Yes, some can be discovered a little quicker than others, but often they are not seen by golfers/members who have been playing the same course for decades.  How many times have you toured GM's with a different architect or player and they revealed something that you had never thought of.  And you know GM better than most.  We see those same reactions at many, many clubs.

Now for me, I played Renaissance Golfs course at Streamsong and just keep daydreaming of getting back there to see more of the course and its mysteries.  Once was not enough. 

For me, I enjoy walking course not in the traditional routing of 1 - 18.  I prefer crisscrossing holes, going in reverse and cutting from one hole to the other to see some subtle nuances and mysteries you can't get walking from tee to green. 

It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Mark McKeever

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2014, 10:55:57 AM »
Cobbs Creeek fits the bill.  8)

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Mac Plumart

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2014, 12:04:51 PM »
just keep daydreaming of getting back there to see more of the course and its mysteries.

That's what I'm talking about JNagle.  But the absolute kicker is when you do get back out to these "mysterious courses" and do try a few new shots, they seem to reveal more.  And then you go back home and day dream some more.  Those are the courses that grab hold of my imagination and heart.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2014, 12:22:36 PM »
It is difficult to design a course with mystery in it, in the modern era.

The problem is that the public doesn't understand golf course architecture.  They expect the architect to sort out all the "shot values" for them, and have intention for the result of every single shot, so they can explain the design to the uninitiated, and defend it to critics.

Some architects have helped to create such expectations -- Rees Jones declares his courses are "tough but fair" and Jack Nicklaus tries to attend to every detail as an architect the same way he did as a golfer.  Pete Dye never offered any justification for what he'd built -- but TV commentators tried to do it for him, because so many of his courses were venues for tournaments.

With that background, it's tough to build a course with complexity and subtlety, and to be up front that one is NOT EVEN TRYING to sort everything out for the golfer.  But when we succeed, people seem to like it.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2014, 12:38:05 PM »
Tom, your work at Dismal fits into this genre very well.

In particular the 4th hole and the stretch from 14-16, highlighted by 15.

Here's a photo of me PUTTING from maybe 100-120 yards on that hole.  Put it on the green too!! 




Your use of short grass as a hazard, along with the humps and hills around the green on this short par 4 is excellent.  I think sometimes I wanna try to drive the green...other times lay up and come in through the air with a wedge...and other times putt.

And then, what is the best angle to attack that green from?  Perhaps it depends on where the pin is?

This hole (and course) exemplifies the idea of this thread.  AND, these kind of courses make golf fun and full of mental stimulation...whether you are playing them or thinking about how to play them at home.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Charlie Gallagher

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2014, 01:31:33 PM »
Tom,
   If mystery includes options that may produce unexpected results, and I'm defining it as such, Ballyneal fits the bill.
Someone listed Royal Portrush earlier and I will just say that the 7th hole there has to be one of the all time hardest MF's in golf. The angle off the tee, the wind's effect on the drive, and the long approach into that green create a kismet that is just a ball buster. It is like target golf in a links setting. The 2nd time I played the hole I was in a crosswind off the tee and down wind on the 2nd shot. Thought I had hit a really good drive and was stunned to find my ball in the left rough. The Daly hole, number 4,  also has a mysterious aspect to it, as into the wind you have to decide how you're going to deal with the two fairway bunkers in play off the tee. You can make solid contact and wind up with an unexpected result on that hole.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2014, 01:48:46 PM »
RCD wins for me on both look and play.  Throw some low lying clouds out there and a bit of mist and the place feels like something out of a Vampire movie.  The blind drives, wooly bunkers, snaking fairways, greens tucked behind dunes and pockets of green grass among endless amounts of gorse made it feel like a wildly overgrown garden maze.  I immediately wanted to play it again, and would go back in a heartbeat to try to decipher its mysteries.

Pac Dunes has a bit of that feel as well, especially on a cloudy day when you really get the sense of isolation while wandering throughout the dunes.  I think you get a bit of the feeling at Trails as well, especially once you get back into the isolation of the woods.  On both courses, figuring out the ideal shot is part of the charm.

I don't think any course in the US has evoked the "where am I and how do I play this" feeling more than Sleepy Hollow.  Perhaps its a personal feeling, as I had little experience with CBM's templates before playing it.  The combination of the sense of stepping back in time and the need to really think your way around the course made it a completely engaging round of golf. 

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mike Hendren

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2014, 01:51:16 PM »
Assuming delusion is not the same as mystery, I'm not sure you can design mystery. Not sure the Old Dead Guys even intended to.

Mystery is a matter of serendipity.  It either occurs by nature or by accident.   To discover it you have to go looking for it.  

Even the best mystery shouldn't cost more than a couple of strokes a round for anyone who really understands the game and how it's played.

North Berwick West Links was mentioned above.  Only played it once and shot 78 despite two wicked hooks coming home that cost me four strokes.  Not bad for a guy named:

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

jeffwarne

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2014, 01:52:16 PM »
Yes sir, the good old days of GCA...

where you waited 13 years for a response to a thread. ::) ::)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2014, 02:02:02 PM »
Yes sir, the good old days of GCA...

where you waited 13 years for a response to a thread. ::) ::)

It's more mysterious that way.

Plus, I hadn't built any of the examples mentioned above.  ;)

jeffwarne

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2014, 02:07:09 PM »
Yes sir, the good old days of GCA...

where you waited 13 years for a response to a thread. ::) ::)

It's more mysterious that way.

Plus, I hadn't built any of the examples mentioned above.  ;)

I laughed out loud at that
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2014, 03:31:24 PM »
Ha ha - funny exchange.

Mac - you know, it sure has been nice to watch your 'trajectory' these last few years, your love of (and skill at) the game growing only a little less quickly than your appreciation for and understanding of the architecture. It's inspiring to me to see what a positive and open attitude like yours can bring.

Ah, an old TE question, a big question, with words like 'mystery' reminding me of his 'vast, sun-lit uplands' of the Big World theory. I love that stuff, and tend to think in those terms, i.e. terms like freedom and transcedence and naturalism. And yet, having TD's post  (and Bogey's comment) reminds me that 'the mystery is in the details'....not so much in broad conceptual/philosophical ideas, but in the practical application of hard-won skills and technique, i.e. how to blend away the mowing lines, how to tie together green contours and surrounds, how to move earth and hide it without anyone noticing etc etc. I'm gonna pat myself on the back here for my thread a few months back when I pegged Tommy as a 'romantic-logician hybrid'. And I think it's actually the logician who's responsible for the mystery.      

Peter
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 03:34:19 PM by PPallotta »

Jud_T

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2014, 04:33:47 PM »
Seems to me that the answer to this question needs to be a course designed and maintained to provide for significant ground game options that by definition would take many more plays to decipher than an aerial golf course given the greater variety of shots and possible plays on offer.  Off the top of my head:

TOC
Old Mac
Prestwick
Crystal Downs
Ballyneal
Kingsley

Not too shabby of a list, which just goes to prove TePaul's point.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 02:09:21 PM by JTigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mac Plumart

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2014, 05:19:14 PM »
From the man, the myth, the legend...


 
When I saw this old thread today my first thought was to wonder both how and why you even found it. My next thought in noticing how old it is and that it was never responded to----was to think it has to hold the all time GOLFCLUBATLAS.com record of elapsed time between initial post and first response---an amazing twelve and a half years!
 
And then I noticed that in the first nine responses today, three of them are architects and three I know and admire greatly---Cowley, Doak and Nagle (to that list I would add Jeff Warne who responded a bit later and beat me to the elapsed time thing but who I also feel basically has all the requisites to be a damn fine golf architect, and I mean right now and today, if he wanted to be-----(why I feel this way is a story for another time).
 
Then I started thinking about this thread---particularly when it was first posted and I realized it truly was a pretty mysterious time---a mere six weeks after perhaps one of the greatest "mental marker dates" of the last century-----9/11/2001.
 
I got grounded past our departure day in the 9/11 world-wide airline shutdown for 4-5 days in Northern Ireland when I was over there with a team of eight guys from my club playing some matches against some Northern Ireland clubs (including Royal Port Rush and Royal County Down). None of us had been through anything like that in our lives (Americans all) and so we sort of moped around in a constant mental and emotional fog until the most optimistic of our group announced to all of us----"WTF, we're probably going to be grounded over here for days so instead of moping around in a fog why don't we just keep playing golf?" Most of us did and it was an amazing mental and emotional salve for most of us, I think; but it sure was for me. In other words, it felt sort of like golf itself came riding back in to the rescue. As we trod quietly around that glorious Royal County Down hitting our shots sometimes lost in other thoughts, it seemed like the place was just folding me into its arms somehow. And I believe when I climbed up to the 9th tee and saw those Mountains of Mourn in all their majesty in the background, I probably even started to cry a little. I felt like I could almost hear the spirits murmuring, and it occurred to me that there they stood proud and strong and everlastingly enduring no matter what the day or time held otherwise------a constant observer through all the ups and downs and sideways ages. So I guess an inordinate amount of "mystery" or mysteriousness was on my mind during that remarkable time anyway.
 
And, as we all remember, it did not go away any time soon, that's for sure. Actually, the thing that gave me some closure or first peace of mind was a seemingly completely unrelated event that happened maybe in the beginning of November 2001. I was watching the Mark Twain Awards that is the annual event where most of the world's best comedians honor one of their own. At this one it was Whoopi Goldberg. They all came up on stage, one after another, and roasted her as she sat peering down from her Queen Box. It was just hilarious. And then the time came for her to depart her Queen Box and come down on the stage to accept her award. She walked to the microphone as the entire theater stood and cheered. Finally they sat down and she just stood there without saying a thing. She might have stood there looking at them in the silence for thirty seconds, but it seemed like an eternity.
 
And finally she spoke-----"When I heard I got this award I decided I would not come because it just seemed so trite with what is going on in the world now. But then I remembered a quotation from Mark Twain---"Nothing in the world can WITHSTAND the ONSLAUGHT----of-----HUMOR." So here I am and thank you very much."
 
Also, it was around that same time that NGLA hit me like a ton of bricks with its mysteries but I think the real reason for it is it was the first time I had played in the NGLA Singles Tournament and they had the course playing screaming firm! In those days in America, even with all the tournament golf I had played all over the place for about twenty five years, I was simply not used to seeing an American course play that fast---and that "possible." It was that very thing that gave me that "Blue Thunder Moment" at Exit 7a on the NJ Turnpike as I was driving home from NGLA that lead to my formulation and development of what I came to call the "Maintenance Meld" or the "Ideal Maintenance Meld" (IMM). It is very safe and true to say that kind of maintenance preparation turned the lights up full bore on all kinds of NGLA's architectural nuances and mysteries. What it meant was that all the available options and choices (strategies) that NGLA's ground potentially held or had to offer were all working on all twelve cylinders. The thing is (and I was only out there practicing that first evening), I could try some stuff that had previously seemed unimaginable, and if I pulled it off in tune with my imagination it actually worked. I was alone out there that day and I just wanted to scream with joy!! (maybe I did).
 
Also, after that I kept going back to NGLA all the time and that is where I really got to know George Bahto. I'm thinking of you George and those good times together on the little slice of Heaven that has to be your personal favorite of all time.
 
So there you are for now, but being the long-winded story teller I've always been there will probably be more to follow.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jeremy Plüss

Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2014, 01:21:42 PM »
Assuming delusion is not the same as mystery, I'm not sure you can design mystery. Not sure the Old Dead Guys even intended to.

Mystery is a matter of serendipity.  It either occurs by nature or by accident.   To discover it you have to go looking for it. 

Even the best mystery shouldn't cost more than a couple of strokes a round for anyone who really understands the game and how it's played.

I do believe that many of the named courses such as TOC, Prestwick or Royal Cinque Ports received their mystery mostly by nature and accident, however, I do believe one can include mystery into a design. Bigger greens for example, with a large amount of internal contour, play different every day depending on wind, pin position, and condition. On a simply tilted green with little internal contour, the main strategy will remain the same almost any day regardless of wind or pin position. A left to right tilted green will almost always favor a shot from the right. While the strategic design philosophy can be done with great success, many courses play similarly every day. A course with a mysterious element (at least to me) will have to play differently, with different strategy depending on the above mentioned factors. On the same hole, some days a high shot from the right might be favored, others perhaps a low one from the left.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2014, 05:07:08 PM »
Not so much mystery these days especially with the web and technology - photos galore, reviews, googlemaps etc.

F1 racing drivers practice upcoming tracks on simulators.

I wonder if any top tour pro golfers do this for upcoming tournament venues? The mystery is then perhaps whether some already do! :)

Sounds like a job for -



atb
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 05:09:34 PM by Thomas Dai »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2014, 06:01:11 PM »
Not so much mystery these days especially with the web and technology - photos galore, reviews, googlemaps etc.

That is why so much of the modern technology [rangefinders et al.] is abhorrent to those of us who value a little bit of mystery.

Imagine hunting if you could track your prey with GPS.  Would there be any point to it?

Jim Tang

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2014, 06:09:48 PM »
+ 1 for Royal County Down.  If a golf course could be gothic, RCD has it.

What about Royal Dornoch?  A remote, romantic setting in the Highlands that is difficult to get to.  The course requires an enormous amount of local knowledge, which can only be learned after many, many rounds on the links.  Foxy is a true puzzle.

I often think of the different shots I played there over 3 rounds and dream of returning.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2014, 06:38:48 PM »
Not so much mystery these days especially with the web and technology - photos galore, reviews, googlemaps etc.

That is why so much of the modern technology [rangefinders et al.] is abhorrent to those of us who value a little bit of mystery.

Imagine hunting if you could track your prey with GPS.  Would there be any point to it?

Tom,

Couldn't agree with you more. Such a shame.

Must be disillusioning at times for someone in your profession to carefully sculpture an intricate area of say camauflaged dead ground into the design of a hole only to know that it'll be made largely irrelevant by some bloke using a yardage book or rangefinder. Would sure as hell annoy me.

atb

Mac Plumart

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Re: Mysterious golf courses
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2014, 06:40:18 PM »
I actually stumbled across this old thread while research Royal County Down.  I'm trying to finish up plans to get out there.  I'm hoping to have multiple rounds on the course.  How many rounds do those of you who have played it think it will take to even begin to understand how to play the holes efficiently?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

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