No Leonardo DiVinci-Golf course drawings

[Tom Naccarato]

While I'm sure to face the wrath of all GCA participants, Here goes nothing!Please pardon the wrinkle finish of the drawing.  I had it in storage and it accidently got crinkled-up!  

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom,You are an absolute legend!! Now give us a brief editorial as to what is happening, etc. (I can't quite make out the writing re: the white thing about fifty yards short of the green is a large scrubby bunker?) Great job though. Congrats.

[TEPaul]

Tom:If you put the "white thing" in front of the green on the low road and the shot to the green from the low road is semi-blind and blind from the high road, you have a duplication of #16 at Inniscrone-the new Gil Hanse design in Avondale Pa.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Once again, much regrets on the condition of the drawing.  I can assure you that crumpled paper is not a medium I'm exploring.Ran, the wording says 2nd shot-in (Approach) Lower fairway.  The idea is for a drop-off similar to the "Saw-tooth" at the Old Course between holes 4 and 14, the same type of play when on the tee on "the Long Hole-In" with the exception of this huge chalky sand pit staring you in the face and only a glimpse of the lower fairway to the left.  For the brave, there is a chance to go for the green off the tee by taking the High Road, a very good chance, but like all things in life, it's a matter of faith because of the blind tee shot and dealing with the collection bunker that is situated at the end of the drop off area.  For the less faint of heart, there is the safe but still demanding chance to simply come off the drop off to the lower fairway and then have a short shot into the green.  I picture one of those "Blasted*" Doak greens to really liven the hole up.(*The same type of "Blasted" that MacKenzie received while hearing a discussion of one of his greens while on a train.)Tom, You wouldn't happen to have any pictures of that hole would you?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,Believe it or not, your "favorite" architect Tom Fazio built a very similar hole at World Woods Pine Barrens (#15).  Only in that case, the "high road" is to the left, and although the green is technically drivable from that side, it's highly unlikely.  The risk side is actually the low road, where if you successfully negotiate a long sandy stretch, a natural pond, and a wooded area to the right to a narrow fairway, you are left with a relatively simple pitch.  Conversely, if you take the safer high road, the fairway narrows the further you attempt to drive.  In any case, shots coming in from the left are rather touchy, with the green falling away rather precipitously.  I played a pretty decent wedged second shot from the left (pin left), and was faced with a 50-footer coming back.All in all, a very good strategic hole (as well as nice to look at...with Fazio, they tend to be all pretty, but too many are vapid) with plenty of options.  Hope you don't mind the ironic comparison; I do know of your distaste for his style.  By the way, I would love to play your hole.  You definitely have a feel for strategic options, which I already knew from your previous passionate posts.  

[THuckaby2]

Tommy, that is really cool - well done!  If you build it, he (Tom Huckaby) will come - I'd love to play that hole.And Mike is right, it is similar to #15 at WW Pine Barrens.  I had the good fortune to play there a few years ago and wow did I love that course, Fazio or no Fazio... Mike, I too busted driver down the left side, almost made the green, probably had the same pitch you had, and got the same result due to the huge slope!  I thought that was a FANTASTIC strategic hole, with risk/reward on BOTH routes.  Go right, that's no easy shot with all the hazards around, but that would be an iron shot so you should be able to keep it straight... negotiate it successfully, the pitch in is easy.  Go left, the green can be reached, but the risks are hazard right, trees left, and then if you don't get it actually on the green, a devilish pitch like you and I had.... that is one cool hole.But I still want to see Tommy's built!Tom Huckaby

[Bill Vostinak]

Tommy's hole is arguably better than Fazio's, I was disappointed at Fazio's hole as described. I was able to only get to the fringe from the back tee, and i thought that the hole was somewhat strategic in that the pin placement made the choice which fairway was more desirable.  I played the hole 3 times the day I played there (Played aboout 60 holes!) anf hit maybe 9 tee shots total.Nicklaus hole at Desert Highlands (?12-14?) is a better example than Fazio's.Actually, Fazio's first par 5 at WWPB is a neater tee shot than the 15th.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bill,After I left my post, two things occurred to me.  First, much different, and I believe better than Tommy's hole, is the fact that at WWPB the entire hole is visible from the tee.  Although I do tend to love blind shots, I think a potentially drivable par four should "entice" the player into attempting the risky shot.  I would be hard pressed to attempt that on Tommy's hole.Second, you're correct related to both the pin position on 15 WWPB dictating the appropriate strategy, as well as indicating that the drive from the par 5 fourth is a much better risk-reward scenario.  The risk for going for the high road on 4 is daunting, but the reward of easily reaching the green with the second certainly makes it worth a go.  It is also incredibly scenic, if not a little scary.

[THuckaby2]

Hmmmm... Ok, I must defer to Bill here, from all I've heard if he can only reach the fringe in 9 shots, I have no business even THINKING about getting to this green.  But.. it's been a few years, but I sure remember at least THINKING I could get there.  Obviously if it is unreachable, this takes away all the reason for going down the left.  Maybe I played an up tee but I sure remember playing as far back as we could....Anyway, I still like Tommy's and hey, I have no problems with leaps of faith.  Build it, I'm going RIGHT baby!Tom Huckaby

[Tom Naccarato]

Where have we had this discussion before???Mike, I figured the blind approach would be dome what controversial, but after seeing so many great golf holes in books from around the turn of the century and before, I seemed to have that in mind here.  Although a lot of them are one-shotters, holes like The Cader and the Maiden are/were completely blind.  How about the Alps?  And come to think of it, how about the first seven holes on the Old Course?MacKenzie said it best about the certain thrill of running to the top and seeing the outcome of one's tee shot, it just shouldn't exist on every hole.Beleive it or not, in my own quriky way (Stand by for this one, because I'm certainly to be chastised!) I pictured this hole as an opeing hole!  Why?  Picture people sitting out on a terrace sipping Bloody Mary's,(with huge celery stalks and lots of pepper!) telling lies about all the women and cheering people on as they decide off the first tee if they want to challenge this Sandy Parlor or vie for playing it safe.  Sort of like Bel Air CC and their par 3, 10th with the men's grill room almost on the tee box.And Tom Huckaby, I like that attitude!  Nothing like having a game plan off the first tee, BOMBS AWAY!!!!!  And yes, there will be a Redanman tee in the very back parking lot.