The "Forgotten Man"

[TEPaul]

There has been some alluding in recent posts to the "Forgotten Man"; the guy who really got his hands into the dirt and produced the features and the nuances of some of the great courses. Does he get any credit for the product? Of course not, in most cases noone even remembers his name!Jeff Mingay thankfully revealed a few of their names in his excellent article about Essex G.C. in "In My Opinion".Some interesting historic realities:MacKenzie was usually in and out of a project so fast they hardly knew him. Is it true he may have neglected to count up the holes on the front nine at Crystal Downs and had to tack on the ninth? Did Perry Maxwell really do the details or was it the "Forgotten Man"? Geoffshac has revealed some interesting facts about the "amateurs" really responsible for some Mackenzie attribution.How could Ross have managed the details when in some cases he was never there and the ideas were shipped from his office in N.C. His drawings and written instructions were very accurate (for that era) and in the case of my course (Gulph Mills) he recommended we hire a superintendent for the construction supervision and his name wasn't J.B. McGovern (who was probably there anyway). I actually know the man's name. Do I know if he was hired and what he did? I never will.By the end of the day Tillinghast had probably lost his grip on his flask and fallen off his stool. Does he get the credit for the terrific nuances? Of course he does! Who really did it? The "Forgotten Man".A couple of interesting tidbits on Perry Maxwell. A well known designer with great historical knowledge was mentioning not long ago that the real work of the wonderful humps and bumps of the great "Maxwell Rolls" (he called them "poofs") was really the creation of a man whose name is gone forever who went everywhere with Maxwell. Also through some darn good research it seems as if Perry when doing some green recontouing at Pine Valley and some of the other Philly courses many times couldn't be found during the day. It turns out he was spending his days at the Philadelphia Opera but not wanting that known as it might have seemed unmanly or something. So when Perry was listening to Swan Lake who was creating the nuances?Look at the work of the well known "amateurs" like Crump and Wilson and maybe even MacDonald when he started NGLA. They lived the creation from beginning to end and obviously had great synergy with those doing the construction.In modern times. How can you beat the synergy of Coore and Crenshaw's "The Boys"? They go everywhere with them, are given tremendous respect and artistic freedom and due to the developed synergy with the designers these potentially "Forgotten Men" never will be forgotten.

[T_MacWood]

TomVery interesting post. I would have to agree that there have been many unsung and forgotten men involved in the construction of many of our great courses. The actual construction of a golf course is a collaborative effort. In most cases you have formal plans drawn by the architect, laborers to actually move the dirt and supervisers to oversee that the laborers followed the plan. These forgotten men could be anything from a common laborer who had a genius for digging bunkers to superviser who had a special talent for constructing greens. Although these men's contribution should not be overlooked, ulimately you can not ignore the fact that they were working from a plan submitted to them by the architect. And in many cases their job was deemed a success if they were simply able to follow the instructions of the architect accurately.Alister MacKenzie over his long career worked with many different men in many different locals, but the constant was that he produced consistently great results. No doubt he surrounded himself with talented men, but surely he must be given the bulk of the credit.(my appologies to Jack Flemming and his 'design' of Cypress Point)No one was more talented at walking a property and creating an exciting routing plan, including green complexes and bunkering. And although some of his designs may have been paper jobs, they were paper jobs drawn up after careful analysis of the site first hand. One advantage that he had over many of his contemporaries was his artistic ability. His ability to draw detailed plans of exactly how each green and bunker should appear I believe is the main reason his Australian courses, as well as many others, were so successful. Russell no doubt deserves credit, but if you compare his solo designs with his MacK jobs, I think it is obvious who was the major force. As far as the story about the routing of Crystal Downs and its accuracy, I'm not sure but would like to believe it is true. The guy was a legendary drinker and it illustrates what a colorful individual he was and his true genius at routing a course even under what some would consider less than ideal conditions(thank God he didn't fall over a cliff into Lake Michigan).Finally, about 8 or 10 years ago I had the pleasure of meeting John McCoy who worked for the good doctor at St.Charles, U of Mich.and Bayside. He described MacKenzie as a man with two personalities. When he was around clients or potential clients he was one of the most charming of individuals, a real saleman and self promoter. On the construction site it was another story. Although he did confirm that he would be AOL more often than not, when he was there he was quite serious and did not appreciate the slightest derivation from his plan. He would walk the site making sure that every detail was followed as he had instructed and when it was not he would explode. He would then make it clear to these men that if they conitinued disobey his plan, they surely would become forgotten men.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Very interesting post. And I'm glad some of you got that message from my "opinion" piece. Mike DeVries was recently in Windsor and we walked both Essex and Roseland. This most recent visit to both courses once again qualified my belief that the construction supervisor was so, so important.Ross walked both properties, and planned all of the greens, but under John Gray's (Essex' experienced greenkeeper) supervision Essex' subtle details turned out so much better. Thus, it's a superior course. And the landscape of the two courses prior to construction was identical: DEAD FLAT. So the comparison is valid.  I really think this is an ideal, and unqiue, case study of the importance of construction supervision.  And, as pointed out above, there are definitely a legion of "forgotten men" responsible for alot of golf course features we admired, and enjoy today.

[TEPaul]

I certainly didn't mean to indicate that the great golden Age architects not be given credit-not at all.They certainly were great routers, great at drawing and art and detailed instructions; it's the little nuances I'm thinking of that were included by the other men or sometimes they weren't.

[T_MacWood]

TomI'm sorry that I rambled on, from some reason your comments on MacK struck a nerve. But I agree with your basic point, that without these unsung men to add the little details, many of our 'great' courses might not be so great.  Afterall if you give a detailed plan for a green complex to five different men, no doubt you probably come up with five different results, especially if they were unsupervised by the architect. Some people just have a more artistic flair than others or they are just more in tune with what looks natural or what the designer is trying to accomplish. If you look at MacKenzie's bunkers over the years, they all have a similar look, an irregular natural dunes-like appearence. But some of his bunkers in England aren't quite as flambouyant as his U.S. and Aussie efforts, maybe his style evolved,  maybe it was the soil conditions or very likely it was the men on the ground (The Jockey Club is perfect example of the men on the ground not getting it). I think Ross is probably responsible for more forgotten men than any designer(unless you include Trent Jones), just because he was more prolific by a long shot and couldn't possibly be everywhere. But on the other hand McGovern and Hatch's solo efforts aren't exactly household names.

[Gib_Papazian]

If we are to identify forgotten men, Jack Fleming would have to head the list in some respects. But how about Robert Hunter? There is another man who despite his terrific book, has never been recognized properly for his contributions.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:Tell me a little more about John McCoy,where did you meet him and what did he do for MacK, and what do you know about Bayside; when was it's demise? I'm originally from Long Island and I can't figure out exactly where it was.

[Mike_Cirba]

My understanding (strictly second-hand from Tom Doak's book) is that Bayside was located just down the hill from what is currently the Clearview GC, designed by Willie Tucker.  I believe an interstate runs through much of what was Bayside, just near the Queens side entrance of the Throgs Neck Bridge and while there, I really couldn't see much in the way of "ruins" that indicated clearly what the former MacK re-design looked like.

[TEPaul]

No wonder it's gone having been that close to the city.

[T_MacWood]

TomJohn McCoy was/is(I'm not sure he's still living) a well educated man, with a degree in agricultural engineering. He got started in golf course construction in 1922, among the projects he was involved with were CC of Detroit, Glenview(Chicago), Virginia(Calif.), Laskers(Chicago), Phoenix(1st grass greens in so.Ariz.), Onwentsia(irrigation&drainage), North Shore(Chicago), TheCountry Club(Mass) and Charles River(Mass). His area of expertise was irrigation and drainage, although he also did general construction work on several projects, including St.Charles in Winnepeg. He first met MacKenzie in a Chicago train station for an pre-arranged interview. He was very impressed with the charm of Dr. MacKenzie, that day he also was able to observe him with clients, who MacK was also meeting that day.In the late 30's he was asked by the Ohio State University to construct their courses based on plans that they believed were MacKenzies. He completed the project with the assistance of an agronomy professor and then became the courses' first superintendent. He later moved on to Cincinnati CC in the same capacity. I had learned of him through some research I had done. I was in Cincinnati on business, and so I decided to see if he was still around. I went to Cinti CC.and was told that he had been retired for some time, but they were kind enough to give me his address. I went to his apartment and although taken a little off guard at first by the sight of a complete stranger, we sat down and he graciously allowed me to ask him questions for almost an hour.In regards to Bayside, Mike is correct, it was located near the eastern approach of the Throgg's Neck Bridge in Queens. It was a public course and like Augusta Nat'l. featured very few bunkers. I'm not sure if this philosophy change was as result of Bobby Jones' influence or because it was more cost effective approach during the depression. What I do know is that in his correspondences at that time(to drum up business), he often cited Bayside as a course that was relatively inexpensive to build and was also quite profitable.Trent Jones claimed to have played a round of golf with MacK at Bayside, while he was studying at Cornell (obviously since he is Cornell man, we must trust his account). He described the course in this way, "There was a dramatic boldness about his work. His bunkers were massive sprawls of sand, many with towering faces which viewed from a distance, gave a concave appearance to the interior slopes and his greens were extremely strongly contoured and many were hemmed with mounds." There was no mention of what they were drinking.

[Guys:]

Dan Wexler's upcoming book on Lost Course (Sleeping Bear) will have all sorts of info on Bayside - probably including a routing. Dan is at Riviera (or however you fellas may be spelling it today).

[George_Bahto]

... sorry for the name screwup - that last post was from me

[Mike_Cirba]

George,I'm all ears on this one.  Bill Quirin's excellent book for the centennial of the Metropolitan Golf Association contained a chapter on "Lost Courses" which, although it didn't include anything on Bayside, was both informative and interesting.  Probably a better title in his case might have been "Lost Clubs", for in a number of cases, the courses still exist in some form today.In many cases, they have been converted to public courses in various states of modification from their original designs.  (i.e. Lido, Timber Point, Lakewood, Salisbury (now Eisenhower Park Red course), North Hills (now Douglaston Park), and New Brunswick (now Rutgers GC).  In fact, there are quite a number of public courses in the Northeast that were designed by some of the great pioneers of the game for private membership, but for a multitude of reasons are now in public, or semi-private hands.  Some of them are remarkably close to their original design, while others have had extensive changes over the years.  In many cases, it's been sad to see these once proud courses fall into poor states of maintenance, particularly those which are government owned and run. I've played all of the above in their current formations, and here are there you can still find the remnants of great classic design.  For instance, at Timber Point, the famed "Gibralter" par three, with an elevated green perched high above the sandy coastline, is pretty much as Hugh Alison & Harry Colt designed it.  Similarly, RTJones revision of Lido includes a revised version of the original "Channel" hole, with much the same original high risk-high reward strategy in place, playing to what I believe is the original greensite.  In any case, I'm wondering if there is an anticipated release date for Mr. Wexler's book.  Any additional info you may have would be greatly appreciated.