Favorite kind of course:great/bad or good/good

[Ran Morrissett]

Some courses like Mid Ocean have all world holes (1,5,17) but also a couple/several real mongrel holes (6,7,16). Are these really great holes more than sufficient to make up for the occasional lapses? Or do you prefer a more consistent (for lack of a better word) course like for instance the heathland ones around London that don't scale the same heights of excellence nor descend so low?  

[Lloyd Bickerton]

The question boils down to which to you like more: Pebble Beach with its unrivaled cliff holes or Pine Valley with what I imagine to be its relentless perfection. I have never played Pine Valley but as for Pebble, I think you end up sacrificing holes like 11 and 12 to achieve the great holes before and after. How was 11 ever going to be but so good unless you started moving everything around? And if you don't score well on these nothing holes, you know your round is history because you will always double 8,9, and 10. The extra pressure on these breather holes is entirely an acceptable trade-off and it makes maintaining your concentration even more challenging.

[A. W. Tillinghast]

Often it is necessary to get from one section to another over ground which is not suited to easy construction, but that troublesome hole must be made to stand right up with the others.  It has nothing about it that might make it respectable, it has to have quality knocked into it until it can hold its head up in polite society.

[T_MacWood]

I appreciate both. I would think courses with 18 good/good holes are more rare and therefore more difficult to build, but I'm not sure. I do know when you run across one you have to tip your hat to the designer. I'm not sure PV is good example, it is the rare great/great course. How about Camargo, The Golf Club or Cascades.The other type are even more exciting. The architect takes you on a roller coaster of emotions, similar to what a composer will do with a symphony. But you alway come away with a feeling of what the hell was he thinking on those odd holes, couldn't he have done... PebbleBeach is often cited, but even its bad holes aren't that bad. I think it is a case of the great holes being so spectacular that anything would have difficulty comparing.

[Ran Morrissett]

Mr. Tillinghast,My mistake for such a poorly worded question.Yes, how an architect treats the holes over the dull or less interesting land can largely determine how a course stands the test of time. I am down on Mid Ocean relative to other people for that very reason - Macdonald or perhaps Jones uncharacteristically failed in this key area. 6, 7, and 16 are tragically (and strangely) just not happening.Yet, otherwise analytical critics seem blinded by the great holes at Mid Ocean, especially when coupled with the idllyic setting. Tom,Interestingly enough, the three courses that you mention all enjoy their own kind of cult following - perhaps, in part, because the architects knocked character into every hole?What are some good examples of holes that follow a great hole, are over dull land, and yet the architect got everything he could out of it?

[b. williams]

6 at seminole is across nondescript land and it follows the more striking 4 and 5 holes. yet, because of the bunkering schemes that ross devised, 6 is mentioned more than either of the other two holes. ross got more than anyone could have out of the 6 hole - a great architect to be sure.  

[T_MacWood]

Two that come to mind, 9-Crystal Downs and 14-Augusta Nat'l. Both the work of the good doctor and both feature unusual and distinctive greens. How he even saw a hole on the side of that hill at CD is beyond me. I think there something to be said for having a nip every now again.

[Gib_Papazian]

I would like to take exception to those who dis' Mid Ocean's holes #6 and 16. If we are to pick out a couple of mediocre ones there, methinks #4 and #7 are likely candidates. I personally have a rough time getting my tee shot over the crest on #6, and therefore have a rather twitchy drop-shot left to the green from the top of the hill. On that rare occasion when I actually introduce the clubhface to my ball and find my drive in the valley I am quite exhilarated - that is a good measure of a hole's worth.Now, onto the 16th. CB alluded to it as the only hole on the course where "hill climbing" was necessary. I don't mind the occasional blind tee shot. The wind does all kinds of strange things up there atop the hill, and hitting the fairway is anything but easy. Anyone ever notice the abyss to the right of the fairway that acts as a catch basin for tee shots to the right? I find that hole to be quite a daunting task, but a hell of a lot of fun too. Kind of reminds me of the tee shot on the 2nd at NGLA the way the fairway is contoured.In answer to the original question, both have their merits. Sometimes a breather hole is good for the sake of pacing though, as long as they are aesthetically pleasing. The dogs at Pebble could use a little character. (By anybody but Rees)

[Ran Morrissett]

Gib,That's interesting - I find the 4th one of the most appealing on the course. What can you say about that green??As for the 7th, surely RTJ did something to it? The same guy who did 6 at NGAL did not do that green.Cheers,

[Bill Vostinak]

I too wish to speak up for the curs at Mid Ocean.Four is one of my favorites with the long iron tee shot requiring placement from the tee based upon the view of the green from the tee and the uncertainty of the uphill and the severe right to left front to back slope.  My kind of quirky.And sixteen, I'd rather have a severe uphill shot than the severe downhill shot Nicklaus and his myopic sight have forced upon us for decades it seems.  The depression on the right of the fairway (Abyss as noted by Gib)reminds me a bit of the hole on the right side of Punchbowl (16) at NGLA.  A wonderful pair of spots for recovery, much more imaginative than LAkes or trees as we usually see with modern "Classics".Now where is that persimmon driver of mine? Six has a touchy teeshot, one of those that if execution isn't there it can make you disrespect the hole when it is your game that has a bit if a gap around the particulap shot required.Seven?Well?  I like the grass bridge......

[DBE]

Tom Doak can elaborate on this better than I--apparently Dr Mac was going to meet Perry Maxwell somewhere near Crystal Downs' site (no doubt with libation) to show him the routing of the first nine holes.  Maxwell looked at the routing and asked his boss where the ninth hole was.  Perhaps that explains the awkwardness of it!

[Mike_Cirba]

Joining Gib and Bill in defense of Mid-Ocean's 16th, I'd like to point out something else that was absent in their otherwise excellent responses.  The green at the 16th is at the highest point of the property, and therefore at the mercy of the capricious winds.  In another thread, I think TEPaul called these semi-blind approaches "skyline greens", which is as good a description as I can think of for greens which sit exposed to the wind across the horizon.  Another example of such a green is the 7th at Muirfield, which falls off into bunkers and trouble on all sides, and will only accept the most purely struck shot in windy conditions.  I can recall watching one of the goofy-golf season events at Mid-Ocean on television, and everyone struggled with their approach to 16 into a quartering wind.  Interestingly, although I don't recall the player, the best approach was a low runner that someone devised which nestled up to about 10 feet.As far as defense of the 6th and 7th at Mid Ocean, you other guys are on your own.

[T_MacWood]

DavidI had heard that same story about the 9th at CD, which would explain its awkwardness and illustrate MacKenzie's genius for taking a challenging parcell and creating a fun and intimidating hole. Another example of Dr.MacK creating a silk purse out of a sow's something or other.After seeing the artistry and creativity of MacKenzie, Tillinghast and Thompson, I've always felt that many of todays designers would be better served if they would start to drink. And if they already drink, they need to drink more.

[TEPaul]

Today's designers do drink; unfortunately they drink at night like the rest of us. The Golden Age geniuses mentioned above had the good sense to start in the morning-and they just got smarter as the day progressed.

[redanman]

The drinking question brings to mind "Where do we draw the line?"The impressionist painters did quite well on Absinthe, perhaps it should be made available to GCA's.Certainly draw the line before acid as an unnamed designer has done a better job since those rumored days of his past.And back to the great/bad//good/good idea, how many courses are consistently excellent to all?  None.  There usually is a hole that is not a favorite for everyone who plays a universally accepted great course.  It will usually have to do with exposing a particular weakness in one's game.I know that the discussion of NGLA usually comes down to the weakest hole as well as the favorite hole.  Same can be said for Merion, Shinnecock, The Old Course, Royal Dornoch, Muirfield and the like (Even the list is up for debate).Personally, I will play anything at least once.  I always seem to find something of interest even if it is a hole so bad I can't stop laughing.If I want to play over and over a particular course it is because of interesting shots near the green.  Mid Ocean for this reason has no real mongrel holes for me, but some ARE  awkward.

[George Blunt]

Ran, without wishing to belittle your beloved Newcastle the last par 3 (15?) is an excellent case in point.  You really just play it to get to the next hole.  If it was shortened and the green complex made more interesting it would set the course up for a great finish.In this respect it is entirely out of character with the rest of the course, as each hole asks different  questions from hole to hole, and the course is a delight to play.  Therefore a mediocre hole is not justified by a lot of good holes, rather it is made to look and feel like the poor country cousin.  To balance the debate and show objectivity my beloved RS suffers in the same way on 10, 15 and (in my opinion!) 17.  One or even 2 or 3 wrongs do not make a right!

[Mike_DeVries]

I don't know if this is true, but the legend surrounding the design of the ninth at Crystal Downs is that MacKenzie and Maxwell were working on the routing of the holes and the scotch was gone.  MacKenzie sent Perry off to town to get some more and when he returned, Alister exclaimed, "I've got it!" and he proceeded to show Maxwell the routing.  As Perry went around the sketch, he counted only 8 holes (seems the Good Doctor had PLENTY of scotch already since he couldn't count to 9!   ) and told MacKenzie so.  Since they had finished up at the 8th green, it was easy for them to walk up the hill and put the par 3 uphill, along the ridge back toward the first tee.  How lucky we are that they did so, as it is a marvelous hole that never fails to challenge you.BTW, I have only had 1 hole-in-one in my life and it was at the ninth at the Downs -- that is truly lucky!  

[Mike_DeVries]

I forgot to comment on the main topic!I am not sure that truly bad holes balance out or are forgotten by truly great holes, but every great course has to have a rhythm to it, just like any great play, book, or other artistic endeavor.  Some new courses which have each hole trying to outdo the last just don't work from a conceptual standpoint.  Golfers can't be expected to climax higher and higher with each subsequent challenge -- it will totally exhaust you.Other great/bad courses are Cruden Bay, Prestwick, and North Berwick.  I mention these in particular because their holes, their history, and their sense of place in golf and their respective environments is incredible.  But they also have some questionable holes, either outright or in respect to today's thoughts on "fairness" and playability, etc.  But these are 3 of my favorite courses and I would love to play any of them every day.  It is also interesting to note that they are great match play courses and maybe those less interesting or super-quirky holes are places where you are likely to try unusual shots and / or forgot about the "disasterous number" you just made because it was a poor hole and go on trying to beat your opponent on the next thrilling adventure around the corner!Back to Crystal Downs, as it has one of the most well-balanced rounds in the world and not one bad hole in the bunch.  I know we have had discussions about #10 being a hole some felt didn't fit in, so I won't go there again.  Others have also said #17 is questionable, but it is one of the great short par fours at Crystal and is one of immense interest for a number of reasons: the view is incredible from both the tee (Lake Michigan and #5 bunker in distance) and green (Crystal Lake and a glimmer of Lk. MI), the shots are demanding and include the entire range depending on how you want to play the hole, the wind is usually a big factor due to the trees either accentuating or shielding the wind, often creating a tunnel effect, and it is completely natural as to how it fits into the site.  I feel Crystal Downs is one of those rare great/great's like Pine Valley as mentioned above and maybe not applicable to the question, but that is what we should be striving for!Well, I don't know which I would pick on a consistent basis, but if forced to . . .  for match play, I would go with the great/bad combo and for stroke play, the good/good combo.

[TEPaul]

Mike DeV:Good posts above: it's great to hear those little stories about MacKenzie and Maxwell.Pine Valley is lucky in that they have a man who was practically the original greenskeeper, still going and living in the village. He saw everyone come through there-and I say they should turn on the tape recorder and just keep it running.

[Mike_DeVries]

Hallelujah!!!!  Wouldn't that be a great thing to do -- how about one of the writers in the group find out about doing that -- sounds like a perfect extension of Geoff's latest work!

[TEPaul]

Actually the pilgrimage to the man's door is exactly that-an extension of Geoff's latest book.There was rekindled interest about the evolution to obsolesence of the old alternate fairway on the 17th (neatest thing you ever saw) that showed up in some of Geoff's aerials. So there was an attempt to find out what happened.Did Mr. Brown not like it? Was it a WW2 maintenance casualty? Did it expose some obnoxious view? Geoff's book was brought to him and read to him (very poor eyesight). His recollection of what happened! The hose didn't reach!! I mean that's why you do research. But still the tape recorder should be running-who knows what other nuggets might turn up.