[Ran Morrissett]

This post is a follow-on from one Tim Liddy made under Curious George - Voting in a Vacuum.In the history of architecture, has any architect made as abrupt a change in style as Dye did from TPC Sawgrass to Long Cove?

[Tim_Liddy]

The one thing that underlines Long Cove to me, and shows so well in the details of the golf course is the talent that was on site during construction.  I believe that Tom Doak, Bobby Weed and PB. Dye were all part of building Long Cove, with Pete Dye providing his great insight and design.  I would love to have that talent on a golf course today!TPC has Deane Beeman’s involement, especially on the greens.It also shows Pete Dye’s response to two different client needs, both accomplished on a very high level.

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Now, with all due respect to Mr. Dye, Tim and Long Cove, who all have my respect...But Ran, could you explain the abrupt change in LC compared to TPC Sawgrass? Yes, it is lower profile and the stadium mounds aren't there. But there was a guy named Tillie who did Somerset Hills and your fav San Francisco Golf Club in a two year period. Now that is what I would call an abrupt change in style.And Ron Forse was the first to point out the difference in Ross styles over the years, which is now becoming more evident to all of us. He had at least three distinct design styles, and looking at the old shot of Seminole, maybe a fourth. For me, Dye's courses still go back to certain basics over the years that he's been pretty consistent on. That's not a bad thing at all, but I don't see the vast changes in his style in the last eighteen years or so. Then again, I'm in Southern California, home to way too many courses calling themselves Dye designs that are Lee Schmidts or someone elses. In fact, we have 17.5 more holes sitting and waiting to be played and 36 about to be built in Simi Valley under the same "Dye" label. So I guess my impressions of his style changes will be further reinforced, perhaps incorrectly. Please, help me with this one?

[Ran Morrissett]

Geoff, A quick response - I am off to play in the Australian Open pro-am and am in desperate need of finding a driving range first.Charles Price said it best (and bear in mind I am talking about the TPC course when it first opened) and I am paraphrasing: " At TPC you feel like you are storming the fort on each and every approach shot; at Long Cove, there are far more open greens in front and you are encouraged to play more shots. It is the kind of course I would never tire of playing." When TPC first opened, it was the exact course you would hate to play every day. The margin for error was slight and the penalties too severe, the greens had massive abrupt interior contours, and there was a lack of variety recovery shots around the green as  thick rough was up (remember Dye/Beaman wanted TPC markedly different from Augusta at first).Long Cove on the other hand was designed from day one as a member's course. There is the corresponding more room to play, nice buffering between the fairway and death (eg. the bunker going down the first), and the greens were much more flowing with broader undulations (eg. the great sweep of the 12th green). Dye spent more time on these greens getting the undulations right than any other course I know. Rough never featured in the design and from day one, there were lots of neat recovery shots around the greens (eg. 11th hole).Even though both courses are essentially flat and are routed around lagoons, for the above reasons I think they fundamentally represent different styles.Now I'm off - I don't want to shank one into Norman.

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Well, Ran, you know how to get to me. Quoting Charles Price always does it. He's the best of the best (I know, how dare I think he's better than Darwin or Wind). I do see your point. It is so easy to only remember the TPC at Sawgrass as it is today, which is not what Mr. Dye created in terms of the look and feel and playing style of the place. That does cloud my judgement, though I still don't see vast changes in his style over the last 20 years.You are playing in the pro-am? The world is in trouble when traditionalists like you succumb to such corporate schmoozefests. Hope you will tell us who your pro is!

[DBE]

Ran, was it Billy Dunk?Why in the world would you want another TPC at Sawgrass?  Deane and Pete fight over who gets the credit for the place and point the finger at each other for the blame.Pete routed the course on a paper napkin for Deane.  The two of them collaborated and came out with something that had lots wrong with it for the first eight years or so.  Literally, every square inch of grass has been replaced.  In the beginning, the concept of the club was a very elite, small membership similar to the old Oak Tree GC in OK with Tour members allowed to play and practice anytime there.  The areas out of play were to be unmaintained (Pete tried a small herd of goats beside the 13th green-several disappeared-gators??!!) and the weeds became so unsightly that even Beman agreed things needed to be more manicured.  The first tournament there (delayed until 1982) saw Tom Watson start a petition among players in the locker room to blow up the greens (Weiskopf likened the place to Donkeykong) and all the player/designers lambast Dye and Beman.  Heck, Deane even tried bentgrass on the greens in 1986 and 87.  That was when Trevino said that he couldn't read dirt.I would say that the course, under the same conditions Norman won with 26 under par in 1994, was 2-4 strokes harder in the early 80's.  It was disheartening to Pete that Deane caved in to the player complaints and softened the course every year after its first event.  The best thing that happened was that Deane realized he couldn't scrimp on conditions, hired a great super (Fred Klauk) and gave him a budget fitting of a place that is owned by the wealthy PGA Tour.  As far as I'm concerned, except for the week of the tournament when there are no carts and you can play from the back tees, it ain't that good. Long Cove (built by developer Joe Webster-a friend of Pete's from Sea Pines days) is a nice membership course.  It has to be softer than TPC at Sawgrass.  He couldn't build a place that was going to rely on lot sales for its membership nor could he do another macho Oak Tree.

[Tim_Liddy]

GeoffPlease give me (us) a primer on the change of Ross style over the years. It sounds very, very interesting, especially since, I am only familiar with his mid-west and #2 works.  Also, have you discussed this with Brad K? He  needs to put this in his upcoming book, if he hasn’t already. (I am probably a year behind on this conversation)

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Tim,Brad is well aware of the style changes over the years in Ross's work. In fact, I asked him to get in touch with Ron Forse about this and I think he did, because Ron has an excellent grasp on Ross's various styles and which of his crews was doing what. So I'm sure Brad will explain much better than I could here in his book. But like many architects, I would think much of it had to do with the personality of the various crews and their supervisers. Just like Fazio's style varies today depending on who is overseeing his work (well, I'm stretching a tad here, but there is a correlation). Geoff

[T_MacWood]

GeoffAs the resident California expert, I have always wondered if there was correlation between the bold appearing bunkering found throughout the state and the men who  constructed these courses. I'm not sure of the chronology, but I know Fowler was one of the early designers and his bunkers are more subdued, but Tillinghast's bunkers at SFGC are very wild and appear to be more so than his other efforts.Also did Thomas's style evolve when he moved to California and how does it compare with his east coast designs?MacKenzie it seems was always very artistic, many of his bunkers in the UK and especially Australia were very beautiful, but it appears his California bunkering are(were) his most extravagant.

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