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Matt_Ward

Re: Why GOLF DIGEST is wrong to use Tradition/100
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2003, 10:48:53 AM »
John C:

I've said this before, however, a few people have short memories. GD got a wake-up call when Shadow Creek cracked its top ten a few years ago. Here you have a course that was new, had mega bucks behind it and on top of that -- it's located in Vegas! Shadow Creek showed that if you allow the panelists to put forward the numbers without "big brother's involvement" you could get the kind of outcomes one saw with Shadow Creek.

GD instituted "tradition" as a fail-safe system to prop up the old line courses. What's amusing is that GD makes the case that it's listing is the definitive guide for the best on golf architecture. Hello -- am I missing something? When you include fudge factors -- I like the term "extre credit" John, you deliberately manipulate the outcomes.

I've said for quite some time that this idea that you must have a mass group of people go around and rate courses is really a big waste of time. You can have a small group and given the desire to keep your ear to the ground you can pick up plenty of info on where the next "hot" courses are coming from and who's designing them. I know I have over the years. But, you also have to have people who get off their butts and travel to places that can be remote -- Links of North Dakota, Hawktree, Wild Horse, Pinon Hills, the list goes on and on. If you think that visiting Myrtle Beach, Southern Florida or the Carolinas is the be all end all you are doing the kind of field research that's necessary to unearth these hidden grems.

Tradition / ambiance / even walking are all ways to pad the score and make sure that the "old-time" greats maintain, or at the minimum have a good shot, at staying at or near their current position. There's been plenty of outstanding new golf that's come forward within the last 30 years. All it takes is a willingness to recognize it because plenty of people on GCA sure know what I'm talking about. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why GOLF DIGEST is wrong to use Tradition/100
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2003, 10:50:47 AM »
The .5 point increase in tradition at Augusta in one year of it's 70 year history must have been due to the scintillating tournament last year.

We know that the course changes stopped all those pesky birdies and eagles that used to happen.  ::)

Perhaps it got a double bump...increased "Tradition", AND "Resistance to Scoring".  

 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tradition valid
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2003, 10:57:23 AM »

Quote
Tradition should be an integral part of the course rankings.  It is a fundamental and legitimate component of a course's character and enjoyment.  And I'm certainly not confining a course's tradition to the tournaments it has hosted or the architects that designed it.

Carlyle:

That is a great hole.

Just so you know, the GD panelists do chime in on "Ambience" - which is what you are talking about.  Of the 10 points available, I think their Ambience score is worth 2.

4- Tournament History
4- Architectural History

I agree with you, but the way GD does it isn't what you might think.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Why GOLF DIGEST is wrong to use Tradition/100
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2003, 11:01:37 AM »
Or perhaps different people look at this different ways.

What the hell guys - if ever Brad Klein's admonition held true it's now re the GD list.

And Matt, would you please stop being so damn wishy-washy?  Jeez I wish you'd take a stand and say what you mean....  ;D ;D

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Why GOLF DIGEST is wrong to use Tradition/100
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2003, 01:09:20 PM »
I don't really believe the "Ambience" rating had much impact on anything.

Pacific Dunes obviously doesn't have much tournament history to go on, but I have to believe it would score as high on "ambience" as about any golf course ... but the numbers say otherwise.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why GOLF DIGEST is wrong to use Tradition/100
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2003, 06:59:05 PM »
There must be a dozen or more posts on GCA relating in some way to GD's rankings.  I've refrained from responding to most of them but GD must be smiling to see all the discussion.  In that regard alone GD must be doing something right.

I find most of the ratings commentary amusing.  Rating courses is such a subjective topic but most people seem to think GD is trying to provide the correct list.  It's just a list guys, ask Ron Whitten and he'll say the same.  His own list is like mine, very different from GD's but that doesn't make ours necessarily any better.  I no longer get too hung up on it.  Maybe someday I'll share my own list with everyone.  I happen to think it's better but then again, you'd expect I would.  

I will say this, I don't have Cherry Hills the second best Flynn course in the country and I hold Sand Hills in a little higher regard than 30 something  ;)

John,
Tradition does have an impact in what is a great golf course.  The way it's applied and weighted, however, is open for debate.  
Mark

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

joegolf

Re: Why GOLF DIGEST is wrong to use Tradition/100
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2003, 01:07:32 PM »
Who else besides me is tired of listening to all the self-important GD raters defend their system?  For most, it is just a convenient excuse to try toplay golf for free.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »