[Ran Morrissett]

For instance, one course that cops a brush off that I would gladly defend is Gleneagles - the collection of individual holes is very appealing and the setting only helps (!!). Yet people say it is too easy, etc. Hogwash.What are some other examples of courses whose virtues you would defend when they are invariably attacked?

[TEPaul]

One that is still controversial in my area that I want to defend more and more is Stonewall.Every time I've been there it has been in a tournament situation and I would love to see it on any other day to compare the level of difficulty.I think in general Doak did a wonderful design job. The course may need a little tweaking because in a few areas the margins for error are really small and if they get the greens to a certain speed some of the holes really get over the top for putting and holding of approach shots. It seems that with touranment set up you might really need to know every little nuance of the place which in and of itself is probably a good thing.The thing I really want to defend is some of the holes require the approach shot to be played so differently than most any other courses around here. There are some run-ins and contours around the greens you must use to play the hole and keep the ball on the greens. Other approach shots have to be played to very specific parts of the greens to have any chance. This all makes for a pretty high intensity level and its is also misunderstood and therefore criticized by a lot of the good players who either don't understand or don't like that kind of design. I like it though, I think it is kind of European and great renaissance stuff. As it is it may still err on the side of too difficult but I was there last weekend in their Fall Scramble (two man) and the winning team was pretty low, so who knows.

[Mike_Cirba]

TEPaul brings up an interesting choice, and I'd like to second his comments, and add a few of my own.  To begin with, I can testify that Stonewall plays similarly on "non-tournament" days.  I found it to be very demanding, and the greens and green-surrounds certainly define the course.  There are clearly no shots that are beyond the skill levels of the most average player, yet the subtle penalties for failing to execute, and the demands of the subsequent shot take it into the realm that I think is best expressed at Pinehurst.  I had the most amazing 3 putt at Stonewall, considering my second putt was from a bunker I had inadvertendly (would you do that intentionally?) putted into at the 12th.  I also had an amazing total of 43 putts in my round of 86.  Yet, at no time did I feel that my skills were unfairly put upon; only that I failed to execute to the high level demanded.  I would have to believe that one could never tire of playing there; it offers an infinite variety of shots, and hopefully my putting effort would be improved over time with more local knowledge of the amazing subtleties of the greens.  It is also one of the only courses I've played where I've had goose bumps walking down the 18th fairway, simply from the tremendously pure and simple nature of the total golf experience provided by Stonewall.

[TEPaul]

Mike:Your post is a very thoughtful and fair analysis of Stonewall. I might print it out and show it to some of my friends who keep criticizing the place.In a little while I'll post some of my specific thoughts about the high and low points and some of the minor things I think need a little tweaking (and some that the members think need tweaking and I don't).The beauty of the place, particularly from the 11th, 13th and 18th hole is breathtaking, isn't it? The 18th is extraordinary and demanding but with many good and reasonable options to grind your way to a satisfying finish. And what a beautiful melding with the clubhouse and the green surround.

[Kyle Harris]

Bumping this:

Let it out boys, don't be shy. I'll respond come morning.

[Jordan Wall]

Bay Hill

Seems to be somewhat hated on this site.

I dont know why though, its a great course.

I found there were some great holes.  The green on #2 is one of the most severe I have ever seen in my life.  You can have your ball land on one side of the green and see it roll all the way to the other and possibly off the green.  It really makes you think where the best place to put your tee shot would be, because you certainly dont want a 30-foot breaking putt (which can happen on that green...).  The elevated tee also adds to the enjoyment for the golfer, and no course is good without enjoyment.  The third is a great hole, you can go for the green yet your lay-up shot is still somewhat severe and forces you right, which is rough.  Since the rough is deep you dont want to go there, forcing yourself to make a perfect shot.  When you are forced to make a great shot that is always when it the hardest to actually do so.  The hole may deceive the golfer also because it is so short.  Great hole though.  The par-5 sixth is one of the better par fives I have ever seen.  Heck, you could hit a wedge into it if the wind was right but you would be lucky for par if the wind was hurting.  The tee shot causes you to think, which is good.  It also has one of the best finishing stretches and most beautiful too!!  16 is a great short par-5 where you are always thinking eagle until you dunk it in the water...with either your second shot or your nasty bunker shot!!  Green is nasty too and really makes you think about laying up and hitting a wedge to the correct porition on the green.  17 is a great par-3 that forces you to almost always play to the center of the green or risk a double bogey.  Water adds to the excitement of the closing stretch, and also puts doubt and fear in the golfer's head.  18 is just beautiful, and a great finisher.  Second is over water, plus its like 460 yards, and a huge tilting green.  Just awesome.  There could easily be a three shot swing on that hole, and every 18th hole should have drama like that.  Just a great course, under-rated by far in my mind.

[Glenn Spencer]

Gleneagles is one of my favorite places on earth. The golf course was awesome. I thought #1 was an interesting way to start, I like the "hit or really hope" par 3, I think it was #5. And I will never forget Braid's Brawest, a fabulous par 4.

Has Canterbury even been panned? beside being too short. In Ohio it is usually ranked behind MVGC-No Way, Inverness-not now, Scioto- equal in my mind, but I would take Canterbury, The Golf Club- can't argue, Camargo- tough but I thought Canterbury offered a lot more. The first tee shot is the most demanding on the planet and then the way that holes sweeps to the right is spectacular. The par 3s on the front are totally different, one is sheer beauty and the other is sheer terror. The 10th in my mind is a wonderful short par 4 with options. The fence might hurt this hole a bit. 13 is exhilirating as a par 4. 14 is a touch weak, 15 is a longer Gleneagles #1 so I like it. The OB is just long and makes for a challenge to an uphill green. The finish is awesome 5-3-4. 17 is a fantastic long iron shot to a raised green that is such a fair ask. The people are great too. Also, I thought the Queens course at Gleneagles was great to play late at night. Good little course. Condition of Canterbury was excellent as well. Perfect for classical golf. US Amateur here, with TCC as qualifying course would be a treat for everyone.

[Wayne Freeman]

What about Pebble?  I've read so many bashers on this site and I'm a little sick of it.  Who wouldn't give anything but their first born child to be able to play that course every day. OK, every hole may not be perfect, but the setting, ambiance, ocean, changing conditions, and challenge make it a very rare bird indeed.  
  Glenn-  good post on Canterbury-  the only possible criticism of it is that it is now too short for U.S. Open competition, but otherwise it has everything you need.

[Thomas_Brown]

interesting comments from TEPaul on Stonewall.
Only played it once, but I thought the greens contours were interesting, but something mostly ignored on the approach.  I played it as aerial attack w/ short side below the hole as not that hard.  I think I had around 28 putts on a better than avg. putting day.

I did enjoy the course very much, but can't see Doak's citing #5 as notable.  I liked #2, 3, 9, 17, 18 above #5.

[Dan Moore]

If the K-Club were here in Illinois I would gladly defend it for the Ryder Cup.    

[jeffwarne]

Augusta National-those who say it doesn't play firm and fast,haven't been there when it does.Torrential Rain the last few years at tournament time has diminished it's ability to do this.
A clay base and winter as its' prime season don't help,but it's not intentional.
Rye grass is REALLY green that time of year-it's not a phenomena of overwatering.
Yes Fazio and Hootie need restraint,but Augusta has been evolving since 1935-I've been critical of many changes,but the course is overly maligned on this site.

[Andy Troeger]

I have not actually played it (only walked during the tournament once), but Muirfield Village would be at the top of my list. Its in my top five courses that I'd love to get a chance to play someday, ahead of a lot of other great ones. I didn't notice the housing being a major issue there.

Only others I can think of that I wish got more credit here are Point O' Woods and Harbour Town. They aren't really bashed very often, but just somewhat ignored.

[Mark Brown]

Spanish Bay - With all the environmental issues considered it came out pretty good. A few quirky holes but some good ones too.

The Ocean Course at Kiawah
TPC at Sawgrass
Valhalla - I really enjoyed it
PGA West -- it was a brilliant in terms of its detailed shaping and creating something fun and dramatic for tourists

[Forrest Richardson]

I will nominate Industry Hills (Eisenhauer)...if for no other reason than to wake up Tommy.

[Doug Siebert]

How about Old Head?  Most people here seem to think that Turnberry is deserving of its ranking, but that Old Head is overrated.  I don't get that, I think that because it is so overly dramatic on those high cliffs it gets looked down upon as a design for dramatic views, and that Turnberry gets points because of the Nicklaus/Watson duel in '77 that have nothing to do with any architectural merit of the layout.

[Jim Nugent]

I will nominate Industry Hills (Eisenhauer)...if for no other reason than to wake up Tommy.

I like the Ike, too.  Though I'm real glad my 4-wood blind second shot on ten by chance missed the pond in front of the green first time I played there in 1987.    

[Jack_Marr]

How about Old Head?  Most people here seem to think that Turnberry is deserving of its ranking, but that Old Head is overrated.  I don't get that, I think that because it is so overly dramatic on those high cliffs it gets looked down upon as a design for dramatic views, and that Turnberry gets points because of the Nicklaus/Watson duel in '77 that have nothing to do with any architectural merit of the layout.

The question everyone should ask themselves is "Did I enjoy playing the course"? I played Old Head, played badly, but absolutely loved my day out. It's not an Irish course, though.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Andy,
  Like I said when we played, this is a opinion website, therefore, I think that Harbor Town doesn't get any credit because it's very mundane-tight, tree line fairways and a very small green...repeat, tight, tree tine fairwasy and a very small green...repeat. Other than the approach to #16 and hole #17 and #18 Harbor Town isn't very apealing to me. In fact, I don't even place in the Top 5 on Hilton Head, let alone my Top 25.
  One course that I will continue to defend is Atlantic, though with the new bunkering and softening of the containment mounds, it seems to have won several over. Atlantic ALWAYS plays fast and firm, always in tournament condition, a very good set of par 4's and rather solid par 3's. Pure golf!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
 

[Forrest Richardson]

Doonbeg. It was so quirky and beautiful — and the golf was good...and it was quirky, too.

[Doug Wright]

Spyglass Hill. Yes it could have been done differently, but what's there is pretty damn good IMO.

Cruden Bay got some flack on here recently too. I'd be very happy to come to its defense as well.

The "problem" with these courses is their world class holes. When you see those you want more, and that isn't always possible for one reason or another.  

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Royal St David's and Aberdovey.  I know they don't explore the big dunes and that you don't see the sea, but dead flat holes can still be interesting and their greens are both excellent.  There's enough quirk for me without being unplayable in a stiff wind.

[Ari Techner]

Eugene CC,  I know it is tight but IMO it is a great collection of holes with some really excellent greens.  IMO if they switched the 9s and the front was the back nine it would get alot better reviews.  IMO 17 and 18 are the 2 weakest holes and might leave a person with a bad taste in their mouth compared to the rest of the course.  

[Sean_A]

Royal St David's and Aberdovey.  I know they don't explore the big dunes and that you don't see the sea, but dead flat holes can still be interesting and their greens are both excellent.  There's enough quirk for me without being unplayable in a stiff wind.

Mark

Where have you been?  I have been getting hammered for mentioning Harlech and good in the same sentence!

Ciao

Sean

[Mark_F]

Sean,

Harlech and Good are about as cosy together in a sentence as Backstreet Boys and Mozart.

If you think they work together, you must run out of superlatives when writing Burnham and Berrow and...

[Andy Troeger]

Andy,
  Like I said when we played, this is a opinion website, therefore, I think that Harbor Town doesn't get any credit because it's very mundane-tight, tree line fairways and a very small green...repeat, tight, tree tine fairwasy and a very small green...repeat. Other than the approach to #16 and hole #17 and #18 Harbor Town isn't very apealing to me. In fact, I don't even place in the Top 5 on Hilton Head, let alone my Top 25.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
 

Tony,
  I won't argue with that being the argument against Harbour Town, and like you said its a matter of opinion. Dan and I actually thought #16 was the weakest hole on the back nine Its similar to the argument I hear against the Point as well, although I personally didn't find either one of them repetitive and know you said you liked that one.
  Then again my home course (Morris Park CC) was probably more repetitive than most courses with one with many 390-415 par fours. I thought that the varying yardages on the 4's was a big benefit of at Harbour Town, especially having the short 4's on 9 and 13 and the long ones at 8 and 18. The par threes are as good as advertised as well. Makes for good debate

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