Favorite Approach Shots

[John Morrissett]

Taking Ted's post one step farther, what are this group's favorite approach shots?  (We know Nicklaus would say the 8th at Pebble Beach.)Just to get the discussion started:17th at St. Andrews (Old);8th at Pine Valley;4th at Royal Melbourne (West) -- the second shot, regardless of whatever par you call the hole;8th, 11th and 16th at Merion;5th at Mid-Ocean;6th and 11th at Ballybunion (Old);3rd at Augusta National;9th at Maidstone; 13th at North Berwick;6th at The Creek;7th and 17th at Kapalua (Plantation);8th at Yale;4th at Fishers Island;and on and on . . .What will be interesting is to compare this post to the posts for favorite tee shots -- any matches mean it's one heck of a hole (e.g., 6 at The Creek and 5 at Mid-Ocean, 9 at Maidstone).

[TEPaul]

The best match for me is the 9th at Maidstone (as stated in another post-my favorite hole in the world).Another pick that doesn't require strength is the approach to Pine Valley #12. Mulitple choices of pitches, chips, bumps and runs etc. If you can hit the tee shot far enough (which I can't) you could even putt it from 20-30 yds off the green as Sergio did at the 18th at St. Andrew's the other day.An alternate choice- If they would only restore the alternate fairway on Pine Valley's 17th-Wow!

[Tom Naccarato]

Riviera #10 (No matter what option you take off the tee, this is one of the great ones.)Old Course #7 (From the left side of the blowout, the hole is blind and all's you think about is Shell and that you don't pull it into Strath.  The distance from the back of Shell to the green is quite phenominal.  Only God would have known where to exactly put that bunker.)Old Course #14 (Oh "Hell!")Bandon Dunes #1 (When the pin is behind the dune)Apache Stronghold #2(Something about working that ball into that green just enamored me.)Pasatiempo #11 (How come my approach shot on this hole is always my third?  Just a tricky, uphill, deceptive distance wise hole.  You say to yourself the whole time, "Please no push into the arroyo, or please don't be on the back of the green" It is a certain death there.)

[Bill Vostinak]

THe 5th at Pinehurst #2 is such a challenge. The problem is that you have to kill your tee shot to have it!

[JohnV]

Leaving out ones others have already entered:5 and 14 at Royal Dornoch6 at Pumpkin Ridge (Ghost Creek)8 and 14 at Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow)9 at Cuscowilla4 at Apache Stronghold4 at Lahinch15 at Eugene8 at Baltusrol Upper17 at Prestwick14 at Portmarnock4 and 14 at Bandon Dunes

[T_MacWood]

I agree with Bill on the 5th at No.2, other that fall into the category of needing a good drive to appreciate the approach would be: 15-Oakmont, 9-Pebble Beach and 6-The Golf ClubOther favorite approaches:4,5 & 8-Sand Hills11 & 17-Lost Dunes8,9 & 12-Cypress Point8-Prarie Dunes6-Camargo8-Whistling Straits7 & 18-Crystal Downs6-Oyster Harbors18-Eastward Ho!

[TEPaul]

I'm planning to post a few impressions of specific holes at Stonewall, but for the time being one that applies to this post is #13, which has a terrific green and surround to bounce the ball in from the right over a cross bunker. The aiming point from the middle of the fairway is the bunker considerably to the right of the green. It's different and fun and very European. The problem with the hole, in my opinion, is the drive falls way short of being good and is the worst on the course. You have to hit it uphill and way too far to get into position for this terrific approach shot.For those who know this hole well, how would you feel about the hole if the bunkering greenside on the right was shifted to the left of the green to allow for a much greater area on the right to carom the ball onto the green? As it is now the margin for error to carom the ball onto the green is realtively small and this is a really long hole. The bunkering shifted to the left would be useful to catch balls from rolling way down the hill. One of the bunkers on the right, however, is the aiming point for this carom shot onto the green and my idea in its place would be a small (maybe pot bunker) set into the hill at the far end of the green (and sort of out of play) which would really only function as a directional bunker for the carom shot.

[Mike_Cirba]

Hi TEPaul,I'm very interested to hear more of your ideas re: Stonewall.  In the case of the 13th, I agree that the possibility of a less than huge drive leaves the prospective of hitting the daunting second shot completely blind (don't ask me how I know!).  Whether a reconfiguration of the bunkering from the right to the left would improve the situation, I'm not sure.  In some ways, it probably would, because leaving the ball in the right trap in attempting the carom would essentially be "dead".  Although, I do recall Doak commenting as to how he couldn't understand how it was ok to put a pond, or OB to the side of a green, but it was "unfair" to leave the golfer with a next to impossible recovery shot from a bunker or slope.  Fair enough question, I guess, except in this case, the golfer is asked to aim directly at the right side...if the carom doesn't come off, or the ball bounds into the bunker...fortunately, I have less direct experience with that predicament.

[TEPaul]

Mike:You see exactly what I mean on the 13th!Firstly, I just played the Fall Scramble (their annual tournament) at Stonewall last weekend. The first round was with a former club champion who is knowledgable on design and we all basically talked about the design of each hole all the way around. Also on the second day the winning team was right behind us so I saw some shots pulled off I really didn't think the course would accommodate. One member of the winning team hits the ball otherworldly distances so that is somewhat understandable. They shot 64-61=125, and blew the field away and the field was most of the best amateurs in philly. The course was also setup really hard and the green speeds were fast.Anyway, the first hole is nice; fairway bunkering placement from the tee is very deceptive which is good. Have to get to know the hole as the lake on right is blind and comes into play much more than one would think. The second shot is sometimes criticized but I think it is good because there is much to consider and many choices to make. There isn't room here to go through the course so I will just say that my feeling or criticism of the course is that some of the margins for error are much too small in some areas which cuts down too much on the options. I think good design should generally increase and enhance options and leave it to the player to decide what kind of risk reward he wants to select. So I'll just mention the areas where I think the margins or tolerances are too low. The front of #2 green is a little severe in that even very good shots will hit the green anywhere on the front and trickle off the green on the left. Hole #3 green is apparently a total recreation of the 1st at Crystal Downs and you really have to know where to hit any club onto it or the ball will filter off the green. A very severe putting surface. Hole #5 is very intense into the wind but a great hole. Did you notice the small fairway front and front left? It can't be seen from the back tee. Hole #6 I think needs the slight swale in the carom area on the left really softened or even removed so the ball can more easily filter onto the green. Hole #9 I would like to see the bunker on the right taken out to allow for more area to bounce the ball into the green, particularly with so much danger on the left with the lake. #10 no one is too crazy about since the fairway just butts into the hill which architects generally don't like to do, but maybe there was nothing he could do about that. #13 I went over and #15 needs to be softened and reasonable options and available shots increased. On that I would recommend taking out a little of the bunkering in front of the green, leaving most of the bunkering to the right front and right of the green to allow a more reasonable shot at the green. Last weekend a really good shot right at the green wouldn't hold the surface and would roll off to the right or over the green. I would also make the left rear a bent fairway grass chipping area to increase the recovery options and make the hole so a good carom shot off the slope that was a little off wouldn't be so heavily penalized with the rough and the severe tilt of the green. #16 is one of the most criticized greens due to the length of the hole, the blind second and the ridge in the middle of the green that forces balls off the green in either direction. The membership is talking about recontouring the green surface but I hope they don't and if they do may be just a little bit. That's about it for now. Do you come from the Philly area by the way? All in all though Stonewall is a wonderful course, albeit very hard and it takes probably a long time to get to know which is to a large degree what good design is all about.

[TEPaul]

Mike:Another big plus at Stonewall, which wasn't mentioned, is there really isn't a tree on the course to worry about. This like Wyncotte in Southern Chester County really makes them so much more fun. There are really only two slight tree situations at Stonewall; Hole #4 they come into play a little on the drive and there is an overhanging limb on the far right side of the fairway if you hit it really long. I would take both of these out, the green and the topography is good enough on the hole without them. There's a clump of trees that come into play on the second and third shot on the #11 and I think these are excellent as they really set up the shots with the severe cant of the fairway that caroms the ball towards them.A course without trees really is a joy as it makes you really pay attention to the features on the ground and the terrain which has so much movement at Stonewall. Geoff Shackelford is right that treelines and an over abundance of trees defining holes cuts down on recovery options for the lesser player and it defines the shots sort of mindlessly for the better player where they end up probably not even noticing the strategies of the ground features.

[Mike_Cirba]

Hi TEPaul,First, thanks for posting your suggestions regarding Stonewall.  I haven't had the "mental time" as of yet to consider my opinions fully, although the suggested change at #9 jumps right out at me as being very sound.  There is just way too much going on from right to left there, including the usual wind direction, to take away the right side bailout and/or carom area.  My teeshot was pretty good...landed about ten feet short of the hole, but about four feet left of the pin, and I was left with a 50-ft putt from the far left side.  The bunker on the right seems to cut off any reasonable detour a player might attempt.I'm amazed that two people were able to shoot those kind of scores at Stonewall, even in what I presume was a better-ball format.  That's pretty astounding!  But, at least it shows that the course can be "had" with excellent play, which I think Doak would consider a criteria for a sound golf course.Finally, yes, I do live in the area..in central Bucks county, and work in Wynnewood.  I'd be happy to tell you more about myself, my ongoing involvement and interest in courses and their architecture, etc., off this board..(I don't want to bore everyone!).  If you're interested, my email address is MCirba@aol.com.  I would certainly enjoy comparing notes on other area courses, such as Wyncote which you mentioned.  Take care, and I hope to hear from you.

[David Staebler]

My favorite approach shot in golf is to the 11th at Merion.  Honorable mentions:7, 12, 17 & 18 at the Old Course3 & 8 at NGLA (and most others)9 at Brancaster (at any tide)13 at North Berwick8 & 13 at Pine Valley9 & 10 at MaidstoneWorth Tracking Down Around My Home Town:9 & 11 at Huntingdon Valley2 & 16 at Philadelphia CC5 & 18 at Philadelphia Cricket5 at Merion (west)13 at Rolling Green8 at Stonewall8 at Gulph Mills (Tom Paul do you agree?)11 at Walnut Lane

[TEPaul]

David:I do agree that #8 is a good little par 4 and it's right up there as my favorite hole on the course. Did you know that the green used to be up on the hill where #9 tee is now. Played almost 400 yds. In the '30s Perry Maxwell was back (he redesigned five holes on the course) and located the 8th green where it is now. I know for a fact that he came right from Augusta where he was doing redesign work. I'm almost certain he basically copied the shot concepts of Augusta's #7. I think the green that he did was virtually the same as Augusta's #7 except he flipped all the quadrants around. He made the hole basically the same length as well.We are probably going to remove the willow tree over the pond to create a more interesting risk/reward situation and to provide a better view from the tees. It will allow big hitters to get very close to the green but I'm of the opinion that this is one green it's generally not a good idea to get too close to.

[TEPaul]

Or is it Augusta's #4? I've never been there and I'll have to look again at their site. They have a good web-site, by the way with some great video shots.

[GCT Jr.]

I would like to add a few approaches of mine that I think are worthy of discussion. Some subtle in their merit, others obvious.The obviously fine ones:#3, #5 and #10 at Los Angeles Athletic...I mean, Riviera.#16 and #17 at Los Angeles Country Club#18 at Bel-Air, may that once fine course rest in peace.GCT Jr.

[GCT Sr.]

Dear Son, How could you not mention the 9th or 15th at Riviera or the 3rd at LACC? You are far too modest.

[DBE]

#1 at Pine Valley where there is death left, right and over--ever tried two putting from outside 30 feet here?#12 at Seminole where I made six with an approach of 115 yards barely right of the flagstick but slightly long, that found the back right bunker#13 at Somerset Hills#10 and 15 at Garden City although some might think otherwise because of the slopes#'s 7 and 14 at Pinehurst # 18 at Olympic when The USGA hasn't set the hole location

[Ran Morrissett]

10 at Garden City is a great call and it is CRIMINAL that more greens that slope away from the player aren't built today. In that same spirit, I think the approaches to the 10th and 12th at Oakmont rival the two more famous approach shots on that course (the 15th and 18th).

[Bob Ellington]

The approach to the table top green at the 2 green at Pinehurst #2 is my favorite approach in the State by a mile. The approach to the 13 green at Harbor Town would be the best in that State. Going for the green in two at 16 at the Cascades though is better than all of them and is my favorite shot in golf.