Pine Valley...again

[Scott_Burroughs]

Matt,

Two courses other than Augusta and Peachtree in GA making the list doesn't seem out of the ordinary....East Lake was #60 in the last list and Ocean Forest was #91 two lists ago.

[Matt_Ward]

Scott:

Mea culpa -- two other GA courses besides ANGC, Peachtree and East Lake made the listing -- and for those who are C&C fans it's not what you think!

Also one other tidbit to mull over -- a classic California course was DROPPED from the top 100!

[THuckaby2]

Also one other tidbit to mull over -- a classic California course was DROPPED from the top 100!

God I hope it's Pasatiempo... then maybe they'll reduce their green fees to pre-ranking status....    I don't think that's the one though - I've got an inkling it might be a certain course with Robert Louis Stevenson characteristics... just a wild guess....

TH

TH

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
You're drawing a conclusion in the presentation of your question."

Pat:

Priceless! All I'm doing is asking you if you think it's a good or bad direction for ANGC to narrow down their fairways from the way they were designed to be. As hard as I look I can't find a conclusion in there anywhere--it's a simple question as yet unanswered.

Yeah, there're trees inside the old fairway lines on #15 so I'm told. What do they do, take them out after the Masters and then put them back for the next Masters? If they do it wouldn't surprise me at all--it's just amazing the little things you can do for about $15-18 mil a year.

"Is Shinnecock and Merion judged by their narrow USOPEN setup when they host the tournament."

Aaaah, may I give you an opportunity to answer that one all by yourself first?

[Gary_Smith]

Matt Ward,

I believe you posted on this thread that you are hearing Oak Hill East is #10. I know you're in the golf business, but I got to believe you are getting some bum information on that one. (which you questioned, yourself) OH East was #23 in the last GD ratings, and I just can't see them jumping 13 places. #23 is probably slightly generous as it is.

Enjoy your posts.

[Pete_Kilhern]

Attention Matt Ward:

If you have information about the Golf Digest rankings, please just tell us the top 50 or top 100 courses instead of giving us hints.

[THuckaby2]

redanman:

I appreciate the fair warning, and I REALLY appreciate the correct spelling of the mother company.  

The Clorox truant officers are a bitch to shake, but damn I've gotten good at it.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul,

Yeah, there're trees inside the old fairway lines on #15 so I'm told.

I believe that you've been "told" wrong.

To my limited knowledge, there are no trees in the old fairway lines at # 15, other than the tree left and short of the pond by a good deal, which has been there for a long, long, time.

Those who complain about # 15 should look into the right side alterations to that hole that have taken place over the years, including the addition of the mounds that were later used to catapult the ball farther down the fairway with drives that were hit with a draw/hook.  In other words, a feature outside of the fairway line was used to propel the ball and I don't believe that that was the intent of Dr AM and RTJ.
That that condition has been corrected should be applauded by the purists, shouldn't it

How many times did Dr AM visit the site pre construction ?
How many times did Dr AM visit the site during construction ?
How many times did Dr AM visit the site post construction ?

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Figuring out what trees are within the original fairway lines of ANGC and where would be a snap with an old aerial compared to one today.

"How many times did Dr AM visit the site pre construction ?
How many times did Dr AM visit the site during construction ?
How many times did Dr AM visit the site post construction ?"

Is there some kind of point in these questions? Are you now implying that MacKenzie wasn't the architect of ANGC? I don't believe MacK ever saw the finished product. I beleive ANGC still owes the man a good deal of his fee too! There were a number of great MacKenzie courses where he never saw the finished product. I can't imagine how many Ross courses there must be where he never saw the finished product.

So what's your point?

[T_MacWood]

MacKenzie spent more time in Augusta than the vast majority of his designs. He relied heavily on very talented associates he trained and tutored. It is generally acknowledged his formula was quite successful - in fact many consider AM the greatest golf architect (past or present).

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul,

The point is, you allege that trees are now in the original, intended fairway lines, and I believe that your information is incorrect.

Tom MacWood,

Don't answer the questions in terms of relativity, answer them in finite numbers/answers.

How many times was he there pre, during and post construction ?

[Matt_Ward]

Gary & Pete:

Appreciate both of your positions to know more, but let's just say that when you actually see the results you may find yourself shaking your head more times in disagreement than in agreement.

I know I have ...  

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
The point is, you allege that trees are now in the original, intended fairway lines, and I believe that your information is incorrect."

Your point may be that I allege that but that really isn't the point that most on this website are interested in.

I believe the point that most are interested in and should be the point is are there trees inside any of those original wide fairway lines and if so is that a good thing for the integrity of a golf course that was designed to have very wide fairways as a central ingredient of its strategy?

If you can come up with anything that proves there are no trees inside those wide original fairway lines then prove me wrong. You certainly can't deny there's a good deal of rough now for the Masters inside those originally intended fairway lines.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
No one knows precisely how many days MacKenzie spent at ANGC, but we have a fairly good idea.

The property was acquired in June 1931, MacKenzie first visited the site in July, spent a week - give or take a day or two - exploring the property. He returned in September and stayed into October. Early clearing started in November. A final decision to go through with the project was made in early 1932. Construction began in February, the golf course was built in record time...only 3 months.  MacKenzie returned in March to oversee among other things the contouring of the greens, he stayed until April. He was in California when the course was officially opened after the grow in period - I believe early 1933. MacKenzie passed away 1/1934 and never saw the golf course in playing form. His trusted assistant Wendell Miller was on site during the entire construction process.

Pre-Construction: Between 3 and 5 weeks.
Construction: Between 3 and 6 weeks.
Post-Construction: Dead

What's your point?

[Gary_Smith]

Matt,

I now choose to retract my hypotheses that you were getting bum information about Oak Hill.  

But I still don't/can't believe it.  

[Gary_Smith]

btw, Matt, I agree with you that Shinnecock should be higher. In looking at the GD website, the ONLY thing that is keeping it from being #2 behind PV is tradition points. Shinnecock is being given 6.46 points for tradition, while Oakmont gets 8.55 (the leader in that category), ANGC gets 8.11, CP gets 7.11, and PB gets 8.23.

Tradition points=backroom adjustment??

[Jeff_Lewis]

Too many threads on this topic...as I mentioned on another one, Sand Hills and Pac Dunes got top 10 golf course ratings and were held back only by tradition criteria.

Here are the rankings sans Tradition category...sort of like a blind wine tasting. I prefer this list because the courses with great tradition probably get higher scores anyway, all things being equal...(I apologize if I made any errors inputting the numbers)

And kudos for Golf Digest for their full disclosure on the data!

1      Pine Valley      
2      Shinnecock      
3      Augusta      
4      Cypress      
5      Pebble      
6      Oakmont      
7      Merion      
8      Pac Dunes      
9      Sand Hills      
10      WFW      
11      Muirfield Village      
12      Wade Hampton      
13      Victoria      
14      Crystal Downs      
15      Oak Hill      
16      Seminole      
17      Pinehurst      
18      Oakland Hills      
19      NGLA      
20      Bethpage      
21      Medinah      
22      Shadow Creek      
23      Bandon      
24      Fishers      
25      Southern Hills      
26      Olympic      
27      QR      
28      Prairie Dunes      
29      Country Club      
30      Whistling Straits      
31      Ocean      
32      Inverness      
33      WFE      
34      San Francisco      
35      LACC      
36      Honors      
37      Quarry      
38      Butler National      
39      Olympia Fields      
40      Forest Highlands      
41      Prince      
42      Cherry Hills      
43      Milwaukee      
44      Double Eagle      
45      Baltusrol      
46      Rich Harvest      
47      Somerset      
48      Chicago      
49      Garden City      
50      Estancia      
51      Scioto      
52      Riviera      
53      TGC      
54      Blackwolf Run      
55      Spyglass      
56      Castle Pines      
57      Crooked Stick      
58      Valhalla      
59      Shoal Creek      
60      Black Diamond      
61      Sycamore Hills      
62      Ocean Forest      
63      Long Cove      
64      Camargo      
65      Colonial      
66      Interlachen      
67      TPC      
68      Cog Hill      
69      Plainfield      
70      Grandfather      
71      Laurel Valley      
72      Homestead      
73      Kittansett      
74      Maidstone      
75      Hazeltine      
76      Wannamoisett      
77      Bellerive      
78      Aronimink      
79      Jupiter Hills      
80      Shoreacres      
81      Eugene      
82      Mauna Kea      
83      Canterbury      
84      Harbour Town      
85      Baltimore      
86      Greenville      
87      East Lake      
88      Stanwich      
89      Pine Tree      
90      Congressional      
91      Pasatiempo      
92      Dunes      
93      Atlanta      
94      Desert Forest      
95      Sahalee      
96      Old Warson      
97      Point o Woods      
98      Salem      
99      NCR      
100      Peachtree      

[Jeff_Lewis]

...and how does Shinnecock LOSE positions because of Tradition?

[THuckaby2]

...and how does Shinnecock LOSE positions because of Tradition?

very simple - because the others above it have more.  By my read of the definition, this doesn't surprise me at all... we're talking some of the absolute paragons of everything in that definition here.  Not that Shinnecock isn't - it absolutely is - but it's very arguable that it might have a tiny bit less than some of the others at the very top of the list, in everything GD mentions that they consider....

TH

[Jeff_Lewis]

Tom, I realize we are splitting hairs here, but...Shinnecock hosted the 1896(!!) US Open. What could be more traditional than that? Plus a Walker Cup and two modern and very good US Opens. It has a Stanford White clubhouse and a CB Macdonald Redan. It got fewer tradition points than Olympia Fields or Olympic.

[THuckaby2]

Jeff:

I didn't say it's correct, I just said it's arguable.  Remember that tournament history is only one part of this, and it doesn't matter if Thomas Jefferson himself designed the clubhouse and his remains are interred therein - clubhouses do not matter.

Go read the definition of ambiance, how walkability fits into this, and then perhaps it will make at least some sense, as it does to me.  Again, it's not that Shinnecock is lacking in any of this - it would get among the most points without a doubt - but others might get more, that's all, the way the definitions go.

Again, I too find some weirdness in this, and if I were the king of this list the tradition points would likely come out quite differently.  I just can see, however, a very valid different opinion on this.  It's not completely off-base, that's all, bottom line.

TH

[Gary_Smith]

Tom Huckaby,

I believe you are a GD rater. Do you mind telling me if tradition points are still left up only to administration or does the rating panel have any input? Thanks in advance.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Tom,

I understand your perspective. Maybe it is about the question that is being asked, not how it is being answered.

The Table lists Tradition, but the article uses the term Ambiance. The question asked of raters, from the GD website, was..."How well does the overall feel of the golf course reflect or uphold the traditions of the game?" That actually looks like a question that attempts to get away from bias toward older, tournament-tested courses. But the results still are tilted that way, yes.? Why would Winged Foot East and West have dramatically different answers to the above question?

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff;

Thanks for sharing that "traditionless" breakdown.

Are Wade Hampton and Victoria National really better golf courses than Seminole, NGLA, Prairie Dunes, and Crystal Downs?

I've played neither, so it's a serious question.  

[THuckaby2]

Gary Smith:

It's all on the GD web site.  Us raters have input into ambiance and walking - results for such are said to be used as part of what the editors award for bonus points.  I know no more than that.

TH