Golf Digest's Mistake in Ohio

« **on:** April 04, 2003, 06:46:13 AM »

Normally, I stay out of discussions about course rankings. But, there was one thing which struck me about Golf digest’s rankings this year for my home state of Ohio: Canton Brookside did not make the top 25.

Does anyone familiar with the Ohio market think this makes sense?

Is Brookside really not among the best 25 golf courses in Ohio?

« **Reply #1 on:** April 04, 2003, 07:09:31 AM »

If its not in the top 25 that is a big mistake and surprising. The Ohio list on GD has been pretty consistant over the years the same courses that seem to only jockey around, but not much dropping off. Is Moraine on the list?

« **Reply #2 on:** April 04, 2003, 07:17:05 AM »

No Moraine.. here's the OH top 25:

1. Inverness C., Toledo [2]*
2. Muirfield Village G.C., Dublin [1]*
3. Scioto C.C., Beachwood [3]*
4. Canterbury C.C., Beachwood [6]*
5. The Golf Club, New Albany [4]*
6. Camargo C., Indian Hill [7]*
7. Double Eagle C., Galena [9]*
8. NCR C.C. (South), Kettering [8]*
9. Kirtland C.C. Willoughby [13]*
10. Sand Ridge G.C., Chardon [5]*
11. Firestone C.C. (S.), Akron [15]
12. Coldstream C.C., Cin. [16]*
13. StoneWater G.C., Highland Heights [14] * «
14. Avalon Lakes G.C., Warren.L
15. The C.C., Pepper Pike [17]*
16. Longaberger G.C., Nashport [12] * «
17. TPC at River's Bend, Maineville *
18. Shaker Run G.C. (Woodlands/
Lakeside), Lebanon [22]*
19. Ohio State University G.C. (Scarlet), Columbus [25]*
20. Firestone C.C. (N.), Akron [24]
21. Eaglesticks G.C., Z'ville [19]* «
22. Fowler's Mill G.C. (Blue/White), Chesterland * «
23. Wedgewood G. & C.C.. Powell *
24. The Reserve at Thunder Hill, Madison * «
25. Cooks Creek G.C., A'ville [21] * «

TH

« **Reply #3 on:** April 04, 2003, 11:05:05 AM »

redanman:

The issue about Lehigh comes down to panelist ignorance -- the course clearly deserves mention among the ten best ion Pennsy. I have to be frank -- until I played the course in the Fall of '01 I knew little, if anything, about the merits of this unique William Flynn design.

You make a good point about the need to expand upon the connection to those with "local knowledge." When we do the ratings for Jersey golf courses we reach out to people who are thoroughly familiar with the state (that means keeping current with new courses that have opened and if anything srastic has happened with some of the more established clubs) and in addition we ensure that they cannot vote for courses that they have clear conflicts with (i.e. existing membership or past membership).

The state listings are clearly influenced by the out-of-state person who because of limited time goes after the "big name" courses (i.e. in the case of the Buckeye State -- Muirfield Village, Inverness, Scioto, etc, etc). The numbers for these courses usually stay fairly high and the opportunity for "new" or "underexposed" courses becomes a tough hill to climb.

How The Golf Club fails to be #1 in Ohio perplexes me. I don't doubt the merits of Inverness but Pete Dye's effort with TGC is surely one of the finest, if not THE finest, he has done. Canterbury is ahead of TGC -- really?

For those who might know -- is Avalon Lakes in Warren really that good for a top 15 placement. I played the course about ten years ago and minus a few holes of note near the end of the round I found the property to be quite flat and predictable.

Also, I really enjoy Eaglesticks in Zanesville and Cook's Creek in Ashville but I wonder how Indian Springs in Mechanicsburg is also not mentioned as a top shelf public course.

« **Reply #4 on:** April 04, 2003, 11:39:02 AM »

Matt Ward:

Like you, I played Avalon Lakes at least ten years ago and found it unworthy of a return visit. Apparently, there was work done on it in recently years but I can't imagine how it could be in the same league as Brookside.

« **Reply #5 on:** April 04, 2003, 01:32:34 PM »

Quote

Does anyone familiar with the Ohio market think this makes sense?

Is Brookside really not among the best 25 golf courses in Ohio?

Tim:
The problem with your argument is that a good portion of the GD ratings are done on a regional basis and as a result, its the Ohio and PA panelists that either did not vote for Brookside or the club did not receive enough panelists to be included in the balloting. (I think a course has to have at least 15 ballots to be counted.)

I run into this problem at least a few times per year, when a club manager will ask how can they get more panelists to come play a course. People complain that GD has 700 panelists and its my contention that they could use another 300 to cover all of the courses such as Brookside.

« **Reply #6 on:** April 04, 2003, 01:56:34 PM »

Joel Stewart:

I'm not sure what you meant by "my argument".

What I'm trying to understand is whether there are any knowledgeable observers of golf in Ohio - not GD panelists, but people who really know architecture - who believe Brookside is not among the top 25 golf courses in the state. I can't imagine this, but if anyone does hold this view, I'd simply like to understand their point of view.

« **Reply #7 on:** April 04, 2003, 01:58:43 PM »

Quote

What I'm trying to understand is whether there are any knowledgeable observers of golf in Ohio - not GD panelists, but people who really know architecture -

The implication there really cracked me up, Tim. Us poor know-nothing GD panelists...

I know that's not really what you meant, but it could be read that way. Just having fun with you.

TH

« **Reply #8 on:** April 04, 2003, 02:35:50 PM »

Tom Huckaby:

I should have made it more clear that I'm looking for two qualities to assess Brookside's absence among the top 25 in Ohio:

a) Knowledge of golf architecture
b) Knowledge of golf courses in Ohio

I have no idea whether GD's panelists have either. What I'm wondering is whether anyone who thinks they have both qualities agrees with Brookside being left off the list?

It seems like an obvious screw up if you just take the one course Matt Ward mentioned as an example (Avalon Lakes).

« **Reply #9 on:** April 04, 2003, 02:39:11 PM »

Tim:
Maybe argument was the wrong word, I'm just trying to explain and I think correctly why Brookside didn't make the list.

I can tell you I spoke with someone at GD today and the phone has been ringing off the hoof with 90% of the calls responding to the state lists. It appears that some changes may occur for panelists and that would be all panelists would be assigned a few courses every year to make sure some of the older courses are covered and reviewed. More on this later.

« **Reply #10 on:** April 04, 2003, 04:05:18 PM »

How can Moraine not be in the top 25 of Ohio....

Speaking of NCR South and Moraine......My friend who was a member at NCR...his house sat where if you were in his kitchen.....you could look out the front door and see the #1 tee of the south course....and if you looked out his back door you could see the 4th fairway on Moraine.

One of the best places to live in Ohio.

I dont know how may of you have played the south course.....but the 3rd tee on the south course is only separated from Moraine #5 by a cable/log fence....

JK

« **Reply #11 on:** April 04, 2003, 05:03:07 PM »

Tim W:

When a publication proudly proclaims that the results it puts forward is the "be-all end-all" in course assessments and then you see the slop they put out you have to wonder just what's going on. I concur with those who have said the state ratings by GD in a number of state is really deficient for a publication that started the ratings assessments so many years ago.

The problem with GD is the inane belief that having more panelists means more coverage -- that is Clintonian spin control.

The key is having people who understand sound course architecture and have the time / energy / passion to visit courses other than the Babe Ruths (i.e. Inverness, Muirfield Village types) on the listing. Any state listing takes a much greater amount of time and energy to really unearth just what's happening -- things can and do change. When you have outside panelists visit a state it's usually the case that they chase the "name" courses first and generally hold an opinion of that course for quite some time. If they ever get to the second and third tier courses it helps but usually the rating visits for those courses is generally low.

Ohio is a golf rich state -- the state listing is really quite poor -- not just with the omission of The Golf Club at the very top, but the simple fact that Muirfield Village went through a major problem with their greens and nothing really changed with their placement. How does that happen? I can tell you that in NJ when Baltusrol experienced issues with their greens (back in 1999-2000) the course did go down (In Jersey Golfer) because you can't continue to hold a course in high company when it's just not prepared for play each and everyday. To do otherwise would be completely unfair to those courses that are putting forward a product at such a high level.

When I was panelist for GD I suggested the minimum number of courses assigned to panelists be substanially increased per year and that a number of those courses should be out of state visits to neighboring areas. If panelists cannot meet the rising base minimums it's time to say adios amigo to them. I have to give GW some credit in attempting to educate people on the role of panelists and just what it is they should be reviewing.

Again, I'll say this again -- there is no absolute sure fire away to quantify a qualitative subject but the state ratings that have come out are just laughable in a number of high profile golf rich states. Someone clearly has fumbled the ball in a big way.

« **Reply #12 on:** April 04, 2003, 05:26:22 PM »

Matt,

You are exactly right. Laughable is the correct term. Ohio, Nebraska, New Mexico, Colorado--pick a state and anyone with half an ounce of knowledge can only conclude that these ratings are FUBAR.

All The Best,

« **Reply #13 on:** April 04, 2003, 05:29:22 PM »

Doug:

Good to hear you partner -- how about the fact that GC at Redlands Mesa is in Colorado's top 25 -- in fact the top ten but GC at Bear Dance doesn't even get listed. Heck, Devil's Thumb (despite some turf issues) is better than a third of the listing they gave.

All the best --

P.S. Contact me offline -- I'm heading back to Colorado sometime in early June. Care for a game together?

« **Reply #14 on:** April 04, 2003, 06:54:26 PM »

OSU Scarlet and Firestone at #'s 18 and 20??

I've not played any between 6-17 but I was mighty impressed by these 2.

Also: Inverness better than MVGC?? Not to me.

« **Reply #15 on:** April 04, 2003, 07:33:15 PM »

,

Though i've only visited my Toledo, Ohio hometown once or so each summer for the last 12 years, and haven't played many of these, I have two comments:

1) this listing looks suspiciously like the ratings folks never got off I-71 in their traversing of the state.. and they just threw in one NW, (Inverness) and one barely east (Eaglesticks) and one barely south of I-71 (Cooks Cr).

2) Since a lot of these are private clubs and not truly public venues, should they really be promoted, who really cares? Everyone who has the opportunity to play these privates typicaly goes for it without hesitation. Don't need any ratings for em!!!

There's a variety of good fun courses in or near each of Ohio's 88 Counties.. Locals know, raters apparently don't get too excited..

p.s. what happended to Ottawa Park?

« **Reply #16 on:** April 04, 2003, 08:17:28 PM »

When I lived in Columbus, the "big four" were Muirfield, Golf Club, Scioto, and Scarlet, most often in that order. In my opinion, it was not coincidental that access and notoriety were big factors in how they were perceived. Muirfield was also buoyed by a seemingly unlimited maintenance budget, and the reputation of being the best conditioned course anywhere. In my ranking back then, Scarlet and the GC would trade places. In the late 70s, Camargo had the reputation of being a nice, but short and quirky course. Typically, when we went to Cinci for a Reds game, we went by way of Dayton to play NCR-South, a wonderful course. I could kick myself for not making an effort to play Camargo, but it just was not that highly thought off at that time. Inverness in Toledo is wonderful, but not in my top five in the state. Firestone-South is just a hard, relatively repetitive course. I haven't played North, but I've heard from a couple of people that they like it better. BTW, the ASGCA had a meeting in Columbus in the last couple ofyears, and one of my friends who attended told me that Double Eagle was not that highly thought of by some in that group (I don't believe that Scarlet was in their itinerary).

« **Reply #17 on:** April 05, 2003, 03:52:20 AM »

Makes you wonder if it was left off in error. I'm looking at the Golf Digest rankings from '01-02' and Brookside was listed 10th in the state. The nine ahead of Brookside were all Top 100 nationally.

« **Reply #18 on:** April 05, 2003, 03:56:26 AM »

I feel the top twenty five list of Ohio has all the right golf courses but not in the right order. I was born and raised in Ohio and have been around the golf industry all my life. Why is Eagle Stix even on the list, it is a great course with a great routing, always in good shape, but nothing out of the ordianary. It is probably listed because of the well known architect in Ohio (Dr. Hurdzan and Fry). Wedgewood is definetely too high in the rankings, it should be in the top teen. The golf course has an extremely impressive and challenging routing, each hole is extremely different from one another, and the greens are fast and hard. Cooks' Creek is another course that was ranked too high. The course was routed around flood plaines and many other natural wetlands that caused many problems in the development. But the finishing product was a natural picturesque setting among the rolling foothills of southern Ohio. Shaker Run is another course that was ranked too high. This course has tradition, it has been around for awhile. Once owned by I recall Amco Oil, then sold to Pete Rose, and currenlty I am not sure who owns it. Great and challenging course and always in tip top shape. I know that Longaberger is a new course, but it has so much to offer. The course is a painting in motion, especially in the early fall when the trees are changing colors. The customer service it tremendous and the course is quite enjoyable for all caliber of golfers. This is only my opinion, take care.

John

« **Reply #19 on:** April 05, 2003, 09:14:04 AM »

jg7236:

It's not clear from your comments whether you believe Brookside is not one of the best 25 courses in Ohio.

If you feel Brookside does not merit such a ranking, can you share what leads you to this conclusion? What is lacking at Brookside that would put it behind all those courses that made the list?

« **Reply #20 on:** April 05, 2003, 01:04:19 PM »

Tim,

Sorry I got off the subject a little bit, I had a few glasses of wine last night. I don't think Brookside should be on the top twenty five list of Ohio. Yes it was a great course at one time, at one time it had a lot of old money and it was the place to be back in the day. Now there is just too many other highly respected great golf courses in Ohio for Brookside to compete with. Brookside needs a face lift, it currently and always has had a great routing, but it just needs some improvements to compete with the rest.

« **Reply #21 on:** April 05, 2003, 02:58:41 PM »

jg7236:

What kind of "face lift" does Brookside need? What is it lacking?

Would you really prefer Stonewater, Avalon Lakes and Fowler's Mill over Brookside?

« **Reply #22 on:** April 05, 2003, 07:03:59 PM »

Matt Ward,
Have you played Indian Springs in the past few years? I play there pretty regularly and learned that most of the greens have been significantly softened since their original construction. I guess most were multi tiered and pretty challanging when the course originally opened. Because the club could never recruit enough members to turn private as intended, it was eventually converted to a public course. At that time, most of the greens were reworked to remove much of the severity. Its really too bad because a few of the unchanged greens are outstanding. I think the course must still be struggling financially because many of the bunkers were dirt and rocks for most of last year. They were never fixed up after some heavy rains flooded several.

On a side, I would add Blue Ash rather then Cooks Creek or Eaglesticks.

« **Reply #23 on:** April 05, 2003, 07:10:53 PM »

Indian Springs has 27 holes now.

#17 green was severe.....I don't know of any work done on the greens.

JK

« **Reply #24 on:** April 06, 2003, 04:40:59 AM »

Whether or not you feel Brookside deserves a higher ranking, the current OH rankings lack integrity.

How can a course go from 10th to out of the top 25 in two years, and be surpassed by a slew of courses that have done nothing to upgrade their appeal?

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