[AndrewB]

How about tame with regard to the number of slopes on a green more than the severity of those slopes?

One, four, and 18 are severe but have a single slope from front to back.  The third green has many minor slopes and I consider that less tame than those.  In general, I find multiple small changes in break and speed more challenging than a single significant break.

I would also consider greens with multiple tiers, where those tiers are relatively flat but the areas connecting them are severe, tame in comparison to a green with lots of little slopes.  Five, eight. 11, and 14 come to mind as tiered greens: are the greens relatively flat (tame) aside from the areas of the green connecting the tiers together?

[Tom_Doak]

Andrew:

A 4% green from back to front is not "tame" for anybody, anytime.

The greens at Cypress Point are not quite as severe as those at Pasatiempo, Crystal Downs or Augusta National for one simple reason -- the land isn't quite as hilly, so the greens did not have to deal with the same amount of slope.

However, the greens at Cypress are anything but flat (with one or two exceptions) and when they are in good shape they can be very difficult to putt.  Indeed, they sort of lull you to sleep and in that respect I think you are even more likely to let a putt get away from you.

[Tom Huckaby]

Andrew:

That illustrates well the degrees of tame-ness.

Now just compare any of those greens to those at Palo Alto Muni, and then call them tame.  

That's more my point here.  Sure some are tamer than others, and again from what I hear they are likely collectively tamer than Crystal Downs, and certainly tamer than Pasatiempo.

But really NONE are tame compared to the rest of the normal golf world.

TH

[Kyle Henderson]

When I finally got to Pebble (as a spectator during the Champions Tour event last September), it seemed to me that most of the severity on the putting surfaces derived from the amount of sand being splashed out of greenside bunkers over decades of heavy play.

Would Cypress' greens be more tame and/or more similar to their original configuration bcause of the limited amount of play it "suffers" from?

[AndrewB]

Tom and Tom, thanks for the replies.  All good points.

But really NONE are tame compared to the rest of the normal golf world.

Agreed, and I'd guess that's why Ran included "(relatively)" in the subject.  I just wanted to hear some more thoughts on this since I've heard others say that the greens make the course.

[Tom Huckaby]

Re what Ran intended, I go back to my first post in this thread.

 

As for the greens making the course, well... that seems to short-shrift the course as a whole to me.  That being said, they are anything but tame unless related to the world's wildest greens.

TH

[Lou_Duran]

Tom Doak,

Would you comment on the 11th (par 3) green at Crystal Downs?  Do you think that the front should be raised to prevent the ball from funneling 20-40 yards down the fairway toward the tee?  #8 is another green that can get quite dicey, but as a par 5 with a short approach, it is fine (just don't do long).

Finally, do you think that CD is more similar to CPC or Prairie Dunes?

Funny how different people perceive the same thing so differently.  I thought that #15 green at CPC is very sophisticated.  Ditto for 14 and 18.  With the exception of #10, I think all the greens are near perfect for the approach shots required.

[AndrewB]

With the exception of #10, I think all the greens are near perfect for the approach shots required.

Now that sounds like an interesting thought exercise.  Can you give a few examples of why this is true on some holes, as well as explain why it isn't on 10?

[Bill_McBride]

Andrew:

A 4% green from back to front is not "tame" for anybody, anytime.

The greens at Cypress Point are not quite as severe as those at Pasatiempo, Crystal Downs or Augusta National for one simple reason -- the land isn't quite as hilly, so the greens did not have to deal with the same amount of slope.

However, the greens at Cypress are anything but flat (with one or two exceptions) and when they are in good shape they can be very difficult to putt.  Indeed, they sort of lull you to sleep and in that respect I think you are even more likely to let a putt get away from you.

When I played with GCA Neal Meagher at Pasa in KP II, he brought along an instrument that looked like a level but measured % slope.  On #8 he measured the slope at around 6%.  This is on a green where the back is built up as the hole plays downhill, so not all the slope is naturally coming off the surrounds!

The front section of #8 at Pasa has to be as treacherously steep as anywhere else on the golf course - it just doesn't look like it!

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:

There are more examples of 6% slopes on greens of famous courses -- starting with Pine Valley.  Still, I think you can get away with that, depending on what is surrounding the 6% area and whether you can keep from having to putt right down the fall line.

Lou:

Trying to soften a green like the 11th at Crystal Downs is not just a case of building up the front ... if you do that, the approach is going to be so steep that it's useless, like a steep hurdle in front of the green.  If you were going to do something there, you'd have to build up a shoulder about 20 yards short of the green, and then soften the slope from there to the front.  The club has instead taken the more practical solution of mowing that approach at a different height, so if you putt off the green the longer grass will stop it before it goes too far.

That green is ridiculous under some conditions, but I wouldn't want to change it.

[Joel_Stewart]

The 2nd time I played Cypress Point the greens had to rolling close to 12 on the stimp.  I hit it above the hole on #1 and putted off the green, making 6 or 7.   It got worse after that.  I'm not sure if they had an event coming up but they can make those greens almost unplayable if they want.

[Bob_Huntley]

Joel,

Let me place the pin at the front of the green and the ball near the back of No.4 at Cypress, on just about any day other than a  rainy one, and I'll take bets all day that there will be very few two putts.


Bob

[JohnV]

The two times I've been lucky enough to play Cypress since I got here, the hole on #11 was at the front.  Both times I got a flyer from the rough and ended up on the back of the green.  Having a putt break about 8 feet from left to right is hardly what I would call tame or subtle.  I did two putt in once.

[Kyle Henderson]

Does anyone have putting statistics from the ATT/Crosby Tournament from when Cypress, Pebble, and Spyglass were in the rotation? That might provide some elucidation...

[Lou_Duran]

Tom Doak,

I can understand why the club may not wish to mess with the 11th green and approach.  Perhaps mowing the approach long will do the trick.  The greens were not very fast (well under 10', I think) when we played, and we probably spent 20-25 minutes on that hole each time trying to hole out (no practicing).  I damned near chipped in from 25' for birdie in my first round and ended up making 7.

I would think that you could raise the front 3" to 4", feathering the material up the slope 20' to 30', and down the slope at least on the right half of the fairway to still enable the run-up shot.  Of course, you are the architect and know the hole much better than me.

Andrew,

In my opinion, #10 is not particularly challenging off the tee, on the second shot, or the approach.  It will play with the wind much of the time and it is reachable in two for even a medium short hitter.  Conceivably, if one is on the back of the green and the pin is on the front, the putting can be difficult.  With a chip or short approach on the third shot, hitting the cupped section of the green should not be a problem.

CPC greens typically have considerable back (high) to front slope, some tiers, and are often perched on hillsides.  With the wind, bunkering, and relatively small to middle size greens, getting the ball on the proper level can be very tough.  Even greens 14, 15, and 18, described by some as relatively flat, are very demanding from above the hole and on the high side.  Running in the 8' - 9' range with moderate wind, the greens are manageable.

I think that #14 is one of the best mid-lenght par fours I've played.  If you manage to hit the opening of the bottleneck, probably with a fairway wood, the second shot might be with a middle to short iron to a smallish, well guarded green running from left to right.  Over-compensate for the wind and miss left, and the bunker or chip shot is next to impossible.  Leave the approach hanging into the crosswind, and you can end up right of the green, maybe behind a tree.  Unless you are below the hole and putting straight up the slope, best of luck.

#15 has a free flow green (deep left, narrower right) with some smallish tiers.  Though normally requiring a W to 8 iron approach, the wind and the awesome surroundings make hitting the proper section of the green difficult.  Two putts from middle/back left to short right can be very good.

#18 has a perched green and it is difficult to hit the right club to get the ball on the cupped area.  The green slope, as I recall, is considerable from back to front, with some from right to left.  It was there where I struck a 3' putt to a hole cut on the middle left of the green just as we read it and never even touched the edge.  My miss for a par flipped the bets, leaving my partner (our host) wondering why he hadn't chosen more wisely.      

[Brad Tufts]

Hi David,

I think you may be thinking of PB #14, with the wicked back to front slope on the right half.

#13 parallels #9, with a large waste bunker down the left. The green is generally flattish (although flowing down the slope towards the ocean).  Our caddies argued over the line of my 10-footer on the front half for the longest of any putt all day.  If I remember correctly, it actually broke uphill and inch or two.  Now if myself and two experienced caddies can't figure the break, that's subtle!

[Tom Huckaby]

Brad:  the front part of 13 has the subtle breaks you mention; the back 2/3 is SEVERELY contoured right to left and back to front.  Watch putts next time you see it on TV... they are some MASSIVE breaks in the back 2/3.

Lou:  #10 certainly gave me enough challenge; and in fact my most recent round there I had a pitch shot that was very cool - best played along the ground - primarily due to the contour of the green - which is pretty steep right to left and back to front.  Oh, it's among the tamer greens at CPC and is certainly the easiest hole on the course on which to make a birdie; I just again compare it to holes outside of the world of great courses, and it holds it's head up quite proudly.  It would be the best hole on Santa Teresa, if only for the fairway bunker, which most definitely comes into play for a guy like me.

TH

[Brad Tufts]

I fully admit I'm going on a single play of each...

[Tom Huckaby]

I fully admit I'm going on a single play of each...

No hassles, man.  If all one saw was the front part of 13 - and it's totally normal that's all you would have focused on given that's where the pin was - one would come off of that calling it subtle for sure.

But that green as a whole is as subtle as a mallet!

I have a whole group of friends who sit by it year after year at the AT&T, making bets on three putts and the like.  The overs ALWAYS win.

 

[Lou_Duran]

Thomas,

I think CPC #10 at most other courses would still be pretty weak.  If the green was diabolical like #9 and with similar surrounds, the hole would be much better.  Yes, there might be some interesting pitches and chips, but it is a short par 5.  Symmetry of design (smaller, more difficult greens for shorter approaches) makes a lot of sense to me, and #10 is the only hole on the course I can think of that is not true to this principle.  Though not among my favorite holes, #16 is a good example of a large green with not a tremendous amount of movement fitting the very difficult approach shot that is demanded.  Of course, as "America's Guest" and the Patron's chosen one, I must defer to your greater experience, knowledge, and good taste.

[Tom Huckaby]

LOL!

Methinks I need to get you to Santa Teresa.  I still maintain that #10 is surely the least interesting hole on CPC, but would be the MOST interesting there.  So to me it's all relative.

I also like the tee shot on 10... and don't see the lack of symmetry that you do... to me any shot into that green is far from easy - lots of death to the sides, you do not want to be above the hole, etc.

But I will say it's likely the most basic hole on CPC.... which to me is like saying it's the least hot USC cheerleader!

 

[Lou_Duran]

The venerable Santa Teresa is replicated many times near here in Costa Mesa.  Without demeaning or disrespecting the class these represent, on this site, for the most part, we are talking about something substantially different, are we not?

I would expect a hole like #10 at Mile Square or Tommy's beloved Rec Park.  You and I are not golf snobs like some of our friends here.  I would likely play a course where CPC's #10 is considered a good par 5 if I could do it at a decent pace in relative peace and quiet.  Alas, this is not possible in the land of the smart and beautiful, so I don't play much golf.

BTW, have you given much thought to the angle of CPC's greens to the preferred but more dangerous sides of the fairways?  I suspect that it is less important today with the higher ball spin rates and better shafts and club technology.

[Tom Huckaby]

Great thoughts, Lou - very well said.

And yes, I'd say also the angle of the greens is indeed less important now... very interesting...

The good thing is such angles do remain relevant for the vast majority of the golf world.  That is, I'd still sure prefer coming in from the right than the left on #13... whereas for a really powerful golfer, that likely does cease to matter.

Interesting food for thought.

TH

[KBanks]

If Crystal Downs' greens are materially more contoured than Cypress Point's, they must be dramatic indeed.

The greens at CP do seem perfectly adapted to their context. The might appear more benign, especially relative to their immediate surrounds, but they are full of interest and challenge, regardless of speed.

I have to echo Tom Doak's CGD comment on how well Cypress accomodates all classes of golfers. I played it recently with my Mom who is 75. She doesn't carry the ball more than 130 yards off the tee, yet tacked her way around the course remarkably well, hitting her low running shots into the greens. The only hole she couldn't negotiate was 15, when she couldn't carry the chasm in front of the tee. The ladies tee isn't much forward of the men's tee there.

Ken

[Tom Huckaby]

KB:  well said, fully agreed.

Curious about your Mom though (and who cool and fun that must have been to play the course with her!):  seems to me the carry from the forward tees to at least reach dry land can't be more than 110 yards, if not less. I'd guess it's 125 to the middle of the green, no?

I'm thinking that unless she played along the cartpath, she'd have just as much trouble with 16 too... wouldn't the minimum carry way far left be pretty similar to that on 16?

This intrigues me... because my Dad (great man that he is), can't carry the ball 150 any more (and I am going to give him massive crap when I see him tomorrow that your Mom is right there with him distance-wise).  I've always wondered how my Dad would do at CPC... seems like he'd love it outside of maybe 15 and 16 too... but the man is a golf tactical genius, so my thought always was he'd find a way to handle those.

Thoughts?

TH

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