Group analysis of Royal Liverpool? (Hoylake)

[Gib_Papazian]

Hoylake was the subject of a rather heated 19th hole disagreement at my home course. Like Olympic, Hoylake inspires some and disappoints others. I have my own opinion, but would rather hear everyone else's first.

[Ran Morrissett]

In part because of the clubhouse, its membership and tradition, you can have undoubtedly a great time there.HOWEVER, I am supicious of anyone who says they "love the course" itself. Honestly, how could you? The stretch of 7 through 12 counts as exhilerating, and plenty of the other holes offer a fine links challenge. For instance, trying to bounce the ball onto the back part of the 15th green is genuine fun. The bunkering is excellent as are the greens and yet still....I could list twenty links I would rather play first. Mind you, being the twenty-first best links course still puts it well up there in the world.Gib, how is that for a hedged, semi-no answer?

[Tom Naccarato]

Gib,Give them a copy of "Golf Courses of the British Isles," make them read it in front of you and then tell them to go out and experience Hoylake. I will gurrantee that they will come back not only fans of Bernard Darwin, but they will understand the course that much better.Sometimes you have to lead the blind to water."Of all the links in the north of England, Hoylake comes first on account of it's historic traditions, the eminence of it's golfing sons, and, as I think at least, it's own intrinsic merits.  At Hoylake the golfing pilgrim is emphatically on classic ground."In less then a paragraph, the first paragraph, Bernie Darwin takes the punch and KO's all of the skeptics.

[John Morrissett]

I like the course quite a bit.I first played it in 1990 and was eager to play it again this past spring.  In the interim I must admit that I had doubts whether I had overrated it (from listening to Ran).  However, the recent round there convinced me that, if anything, I had underrated Hoylake.  As Ran notes, the bunkering is outstanding (I had to resist the temptation of taking dozens of photographs of close-ups of bunkers, they are so well constructed) and the greens quite good (e.g., the rolls on the 3rd and 15th greens).  The setting works well.  True, the housing to the left of 6, 7 and 8 is not quite of the same standard as at Fishers Island.  The routing frequently changes direction and makes good use of the limited dunesland (which also serves as a nice backdrop for the flatter, less exciting parts of the course).  The four short holes play in three different directions, although on a calm day you might play the same club to all of them.  Yes, there is something artificial to the challenges on several holes such as 1,16 and 17, but that somehow seems appropriate here and not out of place at all.It has a splendid collection of holes with no weaknesses.  The 14th hole went up considerably in my mind, although it remains perhaps the least interesting hole on the course.  The 2nd hole is very appealing.  I wonder about the new 7th.  If I had not known the previous version, on this recent trip I would have thought it a fine hole, but . . . I can't help but feel some remorse for the passing of the old 7th with the cop and OB hard against the left edge of the green.Overall, Ryal Liverpool certainly belongs in the same class as Carnoustie, and a good argument could be made for putting it ahead of the Scottish course.  The two are similar in that each is not the most visually-appealing, each has tremendous bunkering and each is a stern test.  Hoylake, however, seems to win in the "charm" department.

[John Sessions]

Ran: Which twenty would you put in front of her?

[Ran Morrissett]

I am not sure Hoylake is a "her" but off the cuff and in no order, I would rather have a hit at: 1.St. Andrews 2. Royal County Down 3. Portrush 4. Brancaster 5. Prestwick 6. Westward Ho! 7. Royal Aberdeen 8. Cruden Bay 9. Portmarnock 10. Ballybunion 11. Rye 12. St. Georges 13. Porthcawl 14. Rosses Point 15. Muirfield 16. Lytham & St. Annes 17. Troon 18. Turnberry 19. Carnoustie and 20. Dornoch.I would dearly love to see the Open played again at Hoylake - that would be fascinating.

[Tom_Doak]

Oh, my God, did they really change the 7th?  That would change my opinion of the course considerably.I haven't been there for a long time, but apart from the ghosts of Hilton and Ball and Graham, it was great because it played hard and fast like a links course of yesteryear -- in fact, that was its main architectural merit.

[John Morrissett]

Yes, they did change the 7th.  Other than being roughly the same distance, the present hole bears no resemblance to its predecessor.  It is a fine, relatively straightforward (better than I would have feared), and it blends in OK with the rest of the course.  In 1990 with the original hole, the Club had stopped playing the cop as OB, a fact we didn't discover until after the round (after all the Morrissetts had bravely missed the green short and right).  Even without OB, I think the hole was still darn good with good undualtions around the green and no doubt an interesting recovery from left of the cop.   This discussion means I should add Hoylake to the list of courses to write-up this winter, with some before and after pictures.

[John Morrissett]

Ran--You would rather play Royal Troon and Portmarnock than Royal Liverpool??!!??!?  When are you going to wake and realize/admit how overrated those two are?  The others can be debated by reasonable people, but not those two.

[Ran Morrissett]

Dear Little and Younger and Less Wise Brother:I became conviced of the merits of Troon when I walked it on a closed Sunday two years ago. The setting on the Firth is underrated and they maintain it firm and fast. The second nine is a killer but the best holes are on the front anyway, so what's not to like?As for Portmarnock, I gave it a second chance and unlike the first time when you and I played it in blah conditions, the second time was a perfect 1 1/2 club wind coming at you from all sides. A quick match play would look like :1. all square (how often do you really want to play the first at Hoylake (I don't care about it being a great 19th hole)?2. Hoylake 1 up3. Hoylake 2 up4. Hoylake 2 up5. Hoylake 1 up6. all square7. Hoylake 1 up8. Hoylake 1 up9. Hoylake 1 up10. all square11. Hoylake 1 up12. Hoylake 1 up (perhaps the two best holes)13. all square14. Portmarnock in a landslide15. ditto Port 2 up16. Port 1 up17. Port 1 up (this is a very good hole in the typical cross breeze)18. Port 2 upThere, leave me alone.Cheers,

[John Morrissett]

Ran--Clue in -- Hoylake wins 8,9 and 10 in a landslide.  The 8th might well be the best hole at Hoylake.  Also, Portmarnock does not win the 13th -- a halv would be generous to Portmarnock.

[John Sessions]

Gib, Where do you stand on Hoylake?

[Matt_Cohn]

Another Hoylake-themed post from 1999. Remember to add 2 to the hole numbers being discussed to get this weeks hole number - i.e., #7 that Tom Doak mentions is #9 this week for the Open.

[Tom_Doak]

Glad I didn't say something stupid about it back then, because you can count on someone to dredge it up here!

[Jeff_Mingay]

Wasn't GolfClubAtlas.com GREAT when the Morrissett brothers used to argue here!

I remember those days fondly  

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Only one original green site.  A great tournament.  Lots of praise from players and commentators.  This is a course which has been changed many times over the years.  Are all the changes for the worse?  Why do so many denounce Donald Steel (architectof the most recent changes) for his work?  Was anybody really upset about the change in the order of the holes?  Did it, or did it not, produce a great championship and bring out the best of a great champion?

[Jonathan Cummings]

My God Ran - there are easily 5-10 more you could name that are better than Hoylake!

Sunningdale (albeit parkland)
Port Georges
Golspie
Portstewart
Waterville
Berwick
Hillside
Walton Heath (albeit heathland)
Western Gailes
Lahinch (the redo is frinkin' wonderful)

Argue-ables:

Sligo
Machrihanish's
Lossiemouth
Gullane #1
Carnoustie
King's at Gleneagles (parkland but MUCH better)

There are more.......

jaycee

[Mark Pearce]

My God Ran - there are easily 5-10 more you could name that are better than Hoylake!

Sunningdale (albeit parkland)
Port Georges
Golspie
Portstewart
Waterville
Berwick
Hillside
Walton Heath (albeit heathland)
Western Gailes
Lahinch (the redo is frinkin' wonderful)

Argue-ables:

Sligo
Machrihanish's
Lossiemouth
Gullane #1
Carnoustie
King's at Gleneagles (parkland but MUCH better)

There are more.......

jaycee

The question related purely to links, so Sunningdale, Walton Heath and the King's are irrelevant.  Golspie, Berwick and Hillside are good courses.  Better than Hoylake?  Not in a million years.  Gullane No 1 is hugley over-rated.  It's not in the same class as those you've mentioned.  

My own take on RLGC having played there many times, is that it is an excellent golf course.  However, it is "workmanlike".  Nowhere do you stop and admire the beauty, as you do at Turnberry, St Andrews, Berwick, Birkdale et al.  There are no picture post card holes.  It is a relentless test of ball striking and strategy.  That's why the best ball striker and strategist won there.   It's a super golf course but never a beauty queen.

[Voytek Wilczak]

Hoylake is the course that brought out a strategic masterpiece from Woods, a driverless performance that left the rest of the field (and the golfing world) shaking their heads - again.

It will be remembered for that, not for the average links it is.

[D_Malley]

would wood"s strategy at hoylake be similar to the way he would play merion in 13?

[Brent Hutto]

Brian,

Not having seen either course, your take on their relative merits is somewhat surprising to me. If you'd ask me before seeing your comments to venture a guess as to how I would like those courses I'd have probably come up with something just about the opposite of your impression. Can't say I'd plan a whole trip around playing those two but you do have my curiosity aroused I must say.

For comparison sake, have you seen either of the two Open Rota courses that I have played? Royal Birkdale and Royal St. Georges.

[Philip Gawith]

Brent, RSG and Birkdale maybe have in common that they have the most prominent dunes of all the courses on the Open rota. However at Birkdale the course winds along between the dunes, witih flattish fairways, whereas the dunes are much more integral to RSG which has some very wild fairways eg 2,4,9,12 and 17. All this you know. Hoylake, in contrast, has some of the flattest holes you will ever play.  What RSG and Hoylake have in common is that they are probably the two pre-eminent bastions of traditional links golf in England, with the most storied history. Both are great clubs, albeit very different. RSG stands alone, Hoylake is like the mother ship to other course in the north-west region. Lytham feels like a relatively close relation of Hoylake as a tradtiional Lancashire links, lots of houses round the course, very heavily bunkered, red brick clubhouse etc. Birkdale is a younger course and club than the others so does not have the heavy weight of history, but it is more aesthetic.

Philip

[Bill_McBride]

Brian, are they back to the original routing and hole numbering?  I have only played the 2006 Open system (with the original #1 as #3), so get easily confused.  

I too am a big fan of Hoylake.  Loved the flat holes with the cops and loved the few holes in the dunes like par 5 #10.  Or is it #8?  

[Brent Hutto]

I think Lytham will be a good test of my perception of whether bunkering can "make a course" so to speak. Until I played at Ganton I can't recall ever seeing a course where so much of the quality of the playing experience flows from the way the bunkering makes you play the course. But I also think I'd like a less cunningly bunkered Ganton quite well indeed. I've long suspected that Lytham is "made" by its bunkers to the extent that, if I felt they created an interesting set of challenges it would raise an otherwise not particularly appealing course to the level of greatness. Or maybe it would not and I wouldn't find it great at all, like yourself.

I'd say our individual take on Sandwich and Birkdale are totally in sync. I agree with your characterization of each course completely. I'll add that the bunkering at Birkdale is stellar in the ability to gather balls running nowhere near the bunker itself. That probably comes in part from the fact it has about as fine a sward of links turf as I've ever hit a 5-iron from!

Philip,

I will certainly admit to be quite easily swayed by a spectacular dunescape. I think Royal St. George's best characteristic is how boldly it incorporates the dunes into the lines of play and does it in a way that is (barely) playable and also extremely challenging. Any more extreme dunes would have to give up either the "playable" part or the "incorporates the dunes" part, I'd think.

[Gary Slatter]

Ran--You would rather play Royal Troon and Portmarnock than Royal Liverpool??!!??!?  When are you going to wake and realize/admit how overrated those two are?  The others can be debated by reasonable people, but not those two.

I would play Hoylake over Troon maybe 9/12 rounds.  Portmarnock I think is equal to Hoylake, IMHO.