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THuckaby2

Holy Grails of Golf
« on: April 03, 2003, 01:01:29 PM »
All this ranking talk once again got me to thinking about what I call the Holy Grails of Golf:  those courses that if an opportunity is offered most golfers would drop everything and make happen right then and there.  As we quibble about the relative merits of the ranked courses, it just seems right to me to ask about this.  Of these courses, which courses are  Holy Grails?

Sticking just to the US, for a long time the answer would be crystal clear to me:  a triumvirate of Pine Valley, Cypress Point and Augusta National.  Say what you will about any of these, but who among us wouldn't drop everything to play them if the chance was given?  redanman used to have a great quote attached to his posts about how he wouldn't get on his knees to play Augusta, but hey, he's a well-travelled man of firm scruples and I admire him for this.  Regarding this stand, he's also in the tiniest minority this side of the US chapter of the Saddam Hussein Fan Club.   ;)

Thus when people criticize Augusta, it always makes me chuckle.  Oh sure, it has been bastardized to all hell in the name of keeping Masters scores down - Daniel Wexler's article in the latest Links is great and right on re this subject.  But to say the course is anything but great even still... well... it might have been greater if they left it alone, but ok, let he to whom this is most important be the first to turn down an invitation there.

For my money there are a few others:  Sand Hills, Shinnecock, NGLA, Merion, Chicago GC... and maybe there are even more beyond that.

The point is, courses like this are SO great, and the vast majority of golfers on this planet would SO enjoy playing any of them, that to denigrate any of them seems really silly to me.

Thoughts?

TH

ps - note I don't put places like Bandon, Pinehurst, Pebble in this category because if money can get one on, it's not a Holy Grail.  These certainly are GREAT perhaps on a par with the Grail courses... but qualification for this status necessarily includes difficulty in accessing on top of greatness.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
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Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2003, 01:25:48 PM »

Tom,

In addition to those you listed I would add Prairie Dunes.

Hell ya I'd play Augusta, but it would be about 5th on the list though.







« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2003, 01:26:55 PM »
I might put Friar's Head, Seminole, Winged Foot, and Oakmont in there.

Prairie Dunes and SFGC maybe...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2003, 01:31:37 PM »
Tom,

IMO your list is too long.  I agree with your definition.  I somehow get an invitation tomorrow.  It makes no difference that I need to pay last second airfare.  It makes no difference that I need to pay last second hotel rates.  It makes no difference that I need to cancil 3 critical meetings.  It makes no difference that I need to move my anniversary dinner back a night.  I am on that plane and playing golf.

The list is Cypress - Augusta - Pine Valley.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2003, 01:37:44 PM »
I forgot Crystal Downs as a another maybe....


David,

You have a point, there is a "drop everything and go" dividing line amongst these, but pure architecture, experience/ambience, and dare I say it, access, are big parts of the equation, too.
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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2003, 01:41:20 PM »
Scott,

Access is absolutely part of it.  My short list of three has some of its mythical qualities due to access.  That written, I would love to play San Francisco GC and Muirfield Village.  Neither course hosts raters.  I hope to one day get a chance but I would not alter my life tomorrow over an invitation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2003, 01:46:16 PM »
National, Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Friar's Head, Shinnecock, Featherie Banks and The Old Course with an invite to R&A Clubhouse afterward.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2003, 01:47:11 PM »
Here's a thought from my end, because Pebble is so damned expensive, I might put in on the list anyways, even though I've played it once and it's open to the public.  If I got a free pass to play again...it might be cause for a special trip.
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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2003, 01:57:52 PM »
Scott,

Obviously this is an opinion but to me your answer to pebble disqualifies it.  If it takes a free pass to get you to do it, it is not a Holy Grail.  I have played Cypress and I would still rearrainge my entire life and ignore all costs for another shot at it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2003, 02:14:48 PM »
CYPRESS POINT
PINE VALLEY
NGLA
SAND HILLS
TIE--SFCC/SEMINOLE

LAST SELECTION...
BEL AIR (ALTHOUGH I'D MUCH PREFER THE ORIGINAL, UNALTERED VERSION)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

THuckaby2

Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2003, 02:24:15 PM »
Dave:

I'm with you, well said.  The three definite "I'm on the plane tomorrow" courses are the three we each named, Augusta-Pine Valley-Cypress.  That's why I say the others "might" achieve this status... and all the others mentioned by me and other people might as well... but these others would depend on how important golf is to you, and how free you are to do these things financially and otherwise.

So I guess I'm re-defining my own definition (to use a horrid phrase):  the only "unquestioned grails" might just be these three.

But then I start to think about Sand Hills, and well... it sure as hell does qualify for me also.... but others might disagree given its location....

I do love this topic in any case.  Thanks one and all for the thoughts.  I'm outta here for now, will have more to add tomorrow morning for sure.

TH
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Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2003, 02:53:35 PM »
Is it a one-some or two-some ?

Some places and experiences would be better shared ... that being said, it would be hard to argue with many of the suggestions ... PV, ANGC, Cypress, NGLA, Friars, WF, Shinney ...

Since half the fun of this trip would be able to share it with friends who didn't go with you (if any), the ANGC would have to be at the top of my list.  Almost all of my friends don't have the knowlege of the golden age of golf, so they wouldn't understand the Holy Grail concept of PV, NGLA, Shinney ... most of them would have heard about Cypress and of course ANGC ...

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"... and I liked the guy ..."

Neal_Meagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2003, 06:03:35 PM »
Tom Paul where are you?  No one's mentioned Fernandina Beach yet.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

TEPaul

Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2003, 06:31:54 PM »
"but qualification for this status necessarily includes difficulty in accessing on top of greatness."

Maybe difficulty of access has something to do with some perception of 'holy grail' but I don't think difficulty of access has a thing to do with architecture and whether it's quality or not.
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TEPaul

Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2003, 06:41:46 PM »
"Tom Paul where are you?  No one's mentioned Fernandina Beach yet."

Neal:

It's shocking isn't it that Fernandina Beach Municipal hasn't been mentioned a number of times and this thread is already 13 posts old. The truth is there're very few who truly have enough architectural sophistication to see the extraordinary nuance of Fernandina Beach Muni. I'll be stopping in to play it and analyze its greatness again, though, in a couple of weeks.

Last year I heard they were thinking of removing that palmetto bush behind #12 and if I find they've done that there's going to be hell to pay.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2003, 07:16:06 PM »
the big three augusta, cypress and pine valley plus NGLA
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Chip_Irons

Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2003, 07:36:27 PM »
Cypress Point, TCC, Pine Valley, Fishers Island
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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SteveC

Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2003, 07:47:47 PM »
I have ready access to Yeamans Hall, but I'm not sure how tough it is to get on there for the rest of the world. The place is awesome. Anyone? Anyone?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2003, 06:05:12 AM »
redanman:

Your experience, counsel and wisdom is much appreciated.  You have a damn good take on this and I respect it completely.

TEP:

Hell yes, this has NOTHING to do with "architecture" whatsoever.  That's a part of it - each of these places would make for a great study - but their "grail" status in no way conveys any greatness of architecture in and of itself, nor does difficulty of access.  That's not the issue here.

But then again, that ought not to surprise you - I've only said about 30 times now on this site that man does not live by architecture alone....  ;)

TH

ps - the more I think about this the more NGLA qualifies also... without a doubt... for me anyway.  My bad not to make this clearer before.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
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Des_Douglas

Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2003, 06:33:11 AM »
C'mon, lets be honest, this Holy Grail baloney has everything to do with ACCESS!  Noone would jump on a plane tomorrow to play Ballybunion or Royal County Down!
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THuckaby2

Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2003, 06:38:43 AM »
Des:

Well obviously difficulty of access has something to do with it - as you see, I don't count Pebble/Pinehurst/Bandon because all that requires is money.  And yes, most of the great clubs of Scotland don't fall in this category due to their FANTASTIC, welcoming guest policies.  That being said, I'd put St. Andrews Old as one of the world's Holy Grails most definitely and access there just takes patience... So access isn't the ONLY issue here, but in any case I was just trying to limit this to the USA for now.

All this being said, there are plenty of places that are equally difficult to access as these mentioned that none of us would get on a plane tomorrow to play....

So taking this into account, do you have any other thoughts or others to add?

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Des_Douglas

Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2003, 07:30:48 AM »
Er, so all it boils down to, is a world great course that is very exclusive/private!  So what do we learn from this?

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THuckaby2

Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2003, 07:34:38 AM »
Des:

It doesn't have to be private:  note that I'd innclude The Old Course if this was to extend world-wide, just because TOC is the home of golf and MUST be seen by any golfer some time in his life.  So TOC gets "grail" status for an entirely different reason, but a grail it is nonetheless.

And you don't have to "learn" anything from this, that's obviously not the point.  I just find it fun to discuss, and have enjoyed the take of others so far on this thread.   If it's of no value to you, then no harm done.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Des_Douglas

Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2003, 07:42:05 AM »
You'd jump on a plane tomorrow to play TOC?
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THuckaby2

Re: Holy Grails of Golf
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2003, 07:47:41 AM »
Des:

Please note how I said TOC was a grail for a different reason.  "Jumping on the plane tomorrow" is not the ONLY qualification for this status.  It is one of them, a great definer, but obviously there are realities of life and given TOC will always be there and seemingly always be available (with patience and persistence) there is not the NECESSITY to jump on the plane tomorrow to play it.  Playing there whenever one can, as many times as one can, but at the very least once in one's lifetime, would seem to me to be mandatory....

And thus although no, it makes no sense to say one would jump on a plane tomorrow to play TOC, it remains a Grail nevertheless.

By the way, this is supposed to be just fun golf talk - I am not trying to make any huge life-changing point by all of this.  My apologies if this whole topic somehow offends you....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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