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Jeff_Mingay

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Ross' Phoenix Club
« on: October 09, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
I'm sure you're all aware of the tremendous amount of work Donald Ross did in the Detroit area.However, the least talked about course has so far been most engaging to me. What is today the William Rogell Muni was design in 1910 by Ross for The Phoenix Club -- a group consisting of a few men who later commissioned Ross to do Franklin Hills. That date suggests that it is Ross' first Michigan course. The club later became Redford CC, and then Rogell in 1979. Bill Rogell was a former Tigers ballplayer and a city councillor in Detroit.The course is historic! All the green contouring, as far as I know now, is original 1910 Ross -- and it proves he was very capable from the beginning! There are some really wild slopes. The 4th green had to be moved up to a plateau from a valley spot where it was constantly flooding; about 40 to 50 years ago. Otherwise, it appears all the originals are in tact.There are some really cool blind shots as well.Of course, way too many bunkers have been removed. You can see the skeletal remains of a few interesting ones. They can be restored, of course. It is the greens that couldn't properly be. And, again, they're all there!The course plays just 6,075 yards par 70. With five par 3's -- three of which are played within the last five holes: nos. 14, 15, and 18.It is a neat place. And with the 457 yards 16th converted from 5 par to 4, it'd be a hell of a par 69 for fun! The conditioning's poor, which account's for the fact that Joe Golfer prefers the new "Arthur Hills Signature" in Auburn Hills, and so many of the other new courses in the area. It's sad to see how much more importance is placed on conditioning by the average golfer in comparison to architecture.  I say, good! I'll keep Rogell all to myself. I plan to speak to the super next week, and delve into the Tufts Archive for more info. about the course.I'll keep those interested posted.
jeffmingay.com

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ross' Phoenix Club
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Jeff,How would you compare the greens there to those at Essex in Windsor, Canada? More or less contour? Same general size?Cheers

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ross' Phoenix Club
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Ran, The greens at Rogell are actually smaller and more severely contoured than those at Essex.
jeffmingay.com

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross' Phoenix Club
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2013, 09:46:01 PM »
So is Rogell a legitimate Donald Ross design? Confirmed? Max Fisher was also involved? Is there documented evidence?

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross' Phoenix Club
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2013, 10:14:18 PM »
The course was an offshoot of The Phoenix Club, a German Jewish social club, formed in 1872.

Apparently, the club sold the original 9 holes designed by Tom Bendelow to Radford Twp and Ross was brought in to expand the course to 18.

http://forelinksters.com/course/the_new_rogell_golf_course_detroit
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross' Phoenix Club
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2013, 11:30:59 PM »
Wonder when he did the work on it? He sure did a lot of work in Michigan and Greater Detroit.  Max was a Franklin Hills guy. Maybe he did then?

Michigan
Barton Hills Country Club, Ann Arbor
Birmingham Country Club, Birmingham
Oakland Hills Country Club, Bloomfield Hills
Dearborn Country Club, Dearborn
Warren Valley Golf Club, Dearborn Heights
Detroit Golf Club, Detroit
Rogell Golf Course, Detroit
Elk Rapids Golf Club, Elk Rapids
Franklin Hills Country Club, Franklin
HIghlands Golf Course, Grand Rapids
Grosse Ile Golf and Country Club, Grosse Ile
Rackham Golf Course, Huntington Woods
Shadow Ridge Golf Course, Ionia
Monroe Golf and Country Club, Monroe
Muskegon Country Club, Muskegon
Western Golf & Country Club, Redford
St. Clair River Country Club, St. Clair

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross' Phoenix Club
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2013, 01:11:27 PM »
I am not sure there was a Phoenix GC, by name anyway.  I can't find mention of a golf club, only the Social Club.  I think the golf club may have been organized as the Redford G&CC, a golfing arm of the Phoenix Social Club which was a city club.  Anyway, its the same course which is now called New Rogell.  The site suffers very badly from drainage issues, but there is a lot of good if rundown architecture.  Additionally, Edgewater Park (visited many times as a kid) opened just up the road (Grand River & 7 Mile) from Redford G&CC, spoiling the country aspect of g&cc so the Phoenix folks picked up and moved to Franklin.   Apparently, the Franklin folks wanted the undivided attention of Ross on this project because they were never satisfied with the previous effort.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross' Phoenix Club
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2013, 02:37:38 PM »
Hi Sean.

It's been many years since I played Rogell but it's about 5 miles from my home. My memories are that the property is rolling and has some very nice contours but at the time I played it the contours were barely recognizable and you could hardly differentiate the tee boxes from the shaggy fairways. The bones were there for sure though. It's wonderful that the Temple has bought and is managing the property. The few holes on the west side of Berg Road are of most interest as they use the Rouge River as a natural hazard. I'll try to get out this year and play a round.


Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross' Phoenix Club
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2013, 03:52:44 PM »
Any idea what condition the course is in now? Realizing now it is covered in snow or winter ice, but even last season? Anyone play it or see it in the last few years?   How does it compare to Rackham (Ross) or Palmer Park?


Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross' Phoenix Club
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2013, 04:16:34 PM »
Any idea what condition the course is in now? Realizing now it is covered in snow or winter ice, but even last season? Anyone play it or see it in the last few years?   How does it compare to Rackham (Ross) or Palmer Park?



Hard to say for certain. I've played Rackham a number of times and there's little if any Ross left and much of the front nine was displaced years ago when the I-696 freeway was built. It's in decent condition and gets a ton of play. In fact it gets so much play that it takes forever to play a round and I won't go back unless invited. Rackham is in good condition and well maintained for a heavily played muni. We don't have much snow on the ground right now so i may take a drive past New Rogell soon to check it out. I'll report back.

I have not played Palmer Park and haven't driven by it in a long time. Of the three, New Rogell by far has the best topography. Rackham is very flat with few contours.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross' Phoenix Club
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2013, 04:25:11 PM »
Any idea what condition the course is in now? Realizing now it is covered in snow or winter ice, but even last season? Anyone play it or see it in the last few years?   How does it compare to Rackham (Ross) or Palmer Park?



Hard to say for certain. I've played Rackham a number of times and there's little if any Ross left and much of the front nine was displaced years ago when the I-696 freeway was built. It's in decent condition and gets a ton of play. In fact it gets so much play that it takes forever to play a round and I won't go back unless invited. Rackham is in good condition and well maintained for a heavily played muni. We don't have much snow on the ground right now so i may take a drive past New Rogell soon to check it out. I'll report back.

I have not played Palmer Park and haven't driven by it in a long time. Of the three, New Rogell by far has the best topography. Rackham is very flat with few contours.

Great insight, Thanks Mike.

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross' Phoenix Club
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2013, 09:04:50 AM »
Looking at Bing it appears that most greens have evolved into simple circles, but the mounding shows some intersting shaped greens used to be there.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross' Phoenix Club
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2013, 10:06:40 PM »
At lunch the other day I made the trip over to New Rogell to see if I could take a few pictures and get some more information on the course. The course is closed for the winter but I was greeted warmly at the clubhouse door by head pro Lindsay Mason who could not have been more gracious. I asked about the plans for the course and there are no plans to do any restoration and he knows of no information regarding the original plans for the course. Perhaps there is something in the archives at Franklin Hills. He told me the major investment made by Greater Grace Temple has been in maintenance equipment. From my experience of many years ago this was badly needed. Kudos to management for making this investment to keep the old gal in decent condition. I was able to walk out to the part of the course that is west of Berg road and south of the clubhouse. This is perhaps the most interesting part of the course as the Rouge River runs through this part of the property. Holes 15-18 lie here.  15 is a downhill par 3 of 155 yards from the back tees. The green is set back a bit from the river and the hole runs to the right of the cart path in this picture. Let me apologize in advance for the poor pics as all I had was my iPhone and of course the weather this time of year in Michigan is not quite like that in more southern states. At least we can get an idea of the land that Donald Ross worked with.

The Rouge River, with the 17th green beyond.



This entire part of the course is a flood plain for the Rouge River and presents some serious issues if there is a lot of rain in the summer. This next picture is of the 17th hole from left of the green looking back towards the tee which is on the hill in the back left. This area routinely floods and they are letting nature have its way as this area will be a wetlands. This hole is a 384 yard par 4 so for many this will be a decent carry. The par 5 16th is to the right, up the hill. The approach to 16 green once again crosses the river.

 
Here is a view from behind the green. There is a fairly substantial lip at the back of this green. It has some tilt from back to front.




 
Here we have the uphill par 3 18th hole. It is severely uphill and plays 166 from the back tees as you can see from the marker. You can see it crosses the river but only a badly struck shot would be affected. You can see the bunker short right of the putting surface.
 
A bit closer and a better view of the hill and atop it the green.
 
The 18th green. It has a severe slope from back to front. I’m guessing a good 3 feet.
 
These next few shots are hard to decipher but I tried to show the deep valley that is on the east side of the course. I shot these through the fence outside the course. We are looking back towards the fairway and tee of the 431 yard dogleg par 4 6th hole. I believe the tee is well in the back off to the right behind the trees in this shot.

 

It plays into a deep valley which I did not capture well than back up to the green. It would take a long and accurate tee shot to leave the golfer a solid long iron approach. The 7th hole plays to the right of the trees and utilizes the same valley although at 314 yards it plays quite differently.

A slightly different angle:


My general impression is that the terrain makes for a potentially terrific course. There are numerous valleys in use and you can see that Ross had a nice piece of land for his canvas. I doubt much earth was moved as from what I could see the green sites are naturally set. Of course as an urban course that has suffered much neglect over the decades it’s a shadow of what it could be but there is great history at New Rogell and with the stewardship of the Temple, it’s accessible and quite playable for the local golfers.

I have a scorecard and if I can figure out how to scan it, blow it up and post it to Photobucket I will post a picture of the layout soon.


Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross' Phoenix Club
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2013, 09:27:16 PM »
Here is the routing from the back of the scorecard:


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