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Ran Morrissett

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Which was Seth Raynor's?
« on: September 23, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Most architects over time get more closely associated with one course than any other (Ross/No.2, Tillie/Winged Foot, Thomas/Riviera, Macdonald/National).With which course would Raynor be most closely identified with? Would that in fact be the course of his choosing?
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Gib_Papazian

Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Fishers Island or Shoreacres. If I had to guess which he would pick, I think Fishers Island because it is so visually compelling.
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George_Bahto

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Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Ran, I would love to hear from more of our fellow respondents on this most interesting website before I offer a response to your question.It is interesting to note how Seth Raynor and his work has been "discovered" over the past three years.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Bob Ellington

Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Mr. Bahto, I doubt very many people have played more than 1-2 Raynor courses, so they don't offer the perspective that you can.
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TEPaul

Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Played quite a few of them and I would say Fishers Is.
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b.williams

Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
how much of cypress point did raynor do? all the routing or just some? otherwise, i believe raynor would most enjoy fishers as it is today.
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Ted_Sturges

Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
While I believe that Fishers Island would be his strongest work, I think Camargo would have to be very, very high on his list of accomplishments.
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George_Bahto

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Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Macdonald thought lido would be Raynor's "monument" but also said he thought Yale might eventually equal Lido as Seth's best work. (He may have been including Raynor's engineering prowess in his thinking). Raynor, on the other hand, thought his best links course was Fishers Island and his best "inland" course was Camargo.It is very hard to dismiss the incredible routing and design of Shoreacres where he designed a course in, over and around ravines up to 30 feet deep.I would have to go along with most of you and have Fishers Island as his best work. But boy Lido, Shoreacres and especially Yale are just a hair's width behind.I think he felt strongly about Camargo because it is such a natural design - not overly dramatic - just a wonderful course (one day the Doak's boy will excorcize all the damn (von) hagge (small "v") "fingers" from the bunkering.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
to George in particular because I am sure (?) of the answer for Gib and Tom,Does that mean if you could only play one more Raynor course once in your life, you would pick Fishers?Everybody always talks about the routing of Cypress (gee, go figure) but for me, Fishers is as good a routing as any course in the world with no exception.
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T_MacWood

Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
George,   I've always been lead to believe that Raynor didn't play the game. Is it true? If it is true what does that say about what it takes to be a great designer. And if he(Raynor) was to evaluate his courses what criteria would he use.
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George_Bahto

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Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Bob: thank you for the kind wordsbwilliams: My information says Seth routed Cypress Point during Dec 1925 - he then went and did Waialae and Mid Pacific and returned to the Everglades Club in Florida where he  died Jan 1926Tom MacWood: Raynor did not play golf until 1914, fully 7 or 8 years after he met Macdonald. It was during the time they built St Louis. (I'll answer the rest of your inquiry in a later post). He was pretty much of a hacker it seems but didn't care.  He did not want to become too good a player. He was afraid he would lower his standards of architecture down to the level of his game.  He wanted the golfer to elevate his game to the architecture he was "producing".Now Ran (you trouble maker) and your question:  Why did you have to ask me that?  I would love to play three or four holes at Yale (4 - 8 - 9 - 10), the greatest continuous stretch of holes I believe he ever built (10 - 11 - 12 - 13 - 14 - 15) at Shoreacres and anything at Fishers Island  and of course there is the redo of Chicago Golf (what a poor answer that was - Yikes!)Everything considered, if I had only one to play, I guess it has to be Fishers Island but take away the aesthetics at Fishers Island and I might go with Shoreacres even though it is a bit short by today's standards.  Just as an aside: Raynor felt a second course he designed for Fishers Island was to have been even better than the first, the present one.  The setting might even have been better. Imagine? I have that routing and it will come out.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Ted_Sturges

Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
To George,Ran and I played at Shore Acres last Friday.  I must say that I cannot disagree with your comments on the 10th through the 15th at that fine course.  I must comment however, that both of us thought that even though this was "severe" property upon which to build a course, the golfer seldom (if ever) plays a shot on ground which is not "flat".  This was my second visit to Shore Acres, and I enjoyed it just as much as the first time.  I can't seem to bring myself, however to rank the course any higher than Yeamans Hall after the greens "redo" at Yeamans.George, I look forward to discussing this and other Raynor issues with you at the end of the month in Arizona.TSPS: Did Raynor build any better "road hole greens" than the 10th at Shore Acres?  An absolutely super golf hole!!!
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Gib_Papazian

Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
George, I wonder if the Road Hole green at North Shore CC on Long Island doesn't rank right there with the best we have seen. Perhaps you might explain the Tillie/Raynor connection.  
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Noel Freeman

Re:Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2006, 01:58:33 PM »
I overheard Pete Dye saying Camargo was his favorite course by Raynor a few weeks ago.
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Geoffrey Childs

Re:Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2006, 02:23:54 PM »
Noel

What Pete Dye told me was that Camargo was Seth Raynor's BEST golf course (Not his favorite).

When I tried to get Mr. Dye to explain why it was Raynor's best he would not expand beyond the fact that it was built over some beautiful rolling Ohio farmland. Yale would seem more dramatic.  Fishers Island would seem more scenic and exposed t the wind. I sure would like to understand what is it about the golf holes on Camargo that trump Yale, Fishers Island, Chicago Golf or Shoreacres.
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Phil Benedict

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Re:Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2006, 04:35:28 PM »
I've only played Yale, Fox Chapel and Hotchkiss.  People on this site tend to get pretty misty-eyed about Fishers Island.  Their comments are echoed by those of acquaintances of mine who've played there.
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ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2006, 06:28:28 PM »
I'm voting for Yale.

I think Fishers has some weakness to it that Yale does not. I also think Raynor toned down his green styles to account for the wind, much the way Tilllinghast seems to have throttled back on his greens at Newport. Unfortunately with all the changes that happened to Yale it is very difficult to know exactly what was going on on those greens. I have not played Camargo so I reserve judgement.

I do think it is ironic that two of Raynor's less thrilling Redan greens are at Yale and Fishers.

Anthony
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SPDB

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Re:Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2006, 06:35:56 PM »
I agree with Tony, and say it was Yale. Fishers was a departure in the Raynor style, almost like he was trying to do something different. I would not closely associate him with Fishers as being emblematic of his style.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 06:36:24 PM by SPDB »
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Bill Brightly

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Re:Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2006, 06:41:34 PM »
If he had lived, I think Raynor would have chosen Fishers because of the land! It's links golf, the only place a truly great course could possibly be built, as CB would have told Raynor many times...

But no one mentioned that Raynor never saw Fishers with grass on it...he died after the first year of construction and Banks finished it, so can this truly be considered Raynor's masterpiece?
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cary lichtenstein

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Re:Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2006, 08:33:47 PM »
What I find so interesting about this thread is the terrific qualities of all of the courses mentioned. He was good, very, very good.
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Michael Dugger

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Re:Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2006, 08:35:58 PM »
Yale, because Macdonald gives him all sorts of credit for the orchestrating the massive engineering undertaking that was constructing the course.  

This became his style.


« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 08:39:08 PM by Michael Dugger »
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

john_stiles

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Re:Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2006, 09:02:29 PM »
I think Yale because it was one that Raynor finished, was a tremendous undertaking given the difficult land, and is a great course.  Basically ditto what Dugger said.

Had Lido survived;  it would have been Lido because of the scale of the efforts and the course.
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Paul Jones

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Re:Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2006, 09:18:50 PM »
I have not played Yale or Fishers Island...

I think Lookout Mountain is the most underated course Raynor designed and my favorite.
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Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Gerry B

Re:Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2006, 12:30:17 AM »
Ran:

as discussed recently my choices would be:

Yale
Fishers Island
Shoreacres
Fox Chapel
Lookout Mountain
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Michael_Stachowicz

Re:Which was Seth Raynor's?
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2006, 07:24:13 AM »
Quote from: Paul Jones on October 18, 2006, 09:18:50 PM
I have not played Yale or Fishers Island...

I think Lookout Mountain is the most underated course Raynor designed and my favorite.

I agree.  Lookout Mountain is Fisher's with mountains instead of an ocean.  I can't believe Lookout doesn't get more credit.


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