Addiction

[TEPaul]

Fellas:This site is really fun, but my wife is starting to give me that "Get a life" look and my "You don't understand my priorities" look is not working. Can't you at least try and get some women on here?

[John Morrissett]

Tom--Valid point -- I'm sure Ran is familiar with that look from Le-Arne with regard to this site.  When she unpacks her computer in Indy I will encourage my wife Lisa to participate more (even if she underestimates the 14th at Kapalua).John

[Norbert P]

  Tom, almost five years later... are you still getting "the look"?  

[Jeff Shelman]

You should've heard the reaction from my fiancee when I told her I was going to meet someone to play golf with who I had only "met" through a golf architecture website. She had fun with that one. I believe her line was something like, "Have fun on your internet golf date."

She, obviously, doesn't get it.

[A_Clay_Man]

Tom P - If I may quote a famous television Doctor who actually is an addiction specialist. Dr. Drew, says: Addiction is: Continued action after adverse circumstance.

So, for it to be an addiction, there needs to be negative consequences from continued action.

Are you having any adverse circumstance from staying on here too long? (other than having to correct Pat Mucci all the time, I mean)

[Adam_F_Collins]

TEPaul,

I've noted your rather large number of posts and...if you do the math...it works out to about 13.5 posts per day....


...your wife may be the most understanding woman alive.



You're a lucky man.

Cheers.

[guesst]

Can't you at least try and get some women on here?

The problem is (pause for affect) in order to get more women on HERE, you need first to get more women out to see golf courses.  Then you'd have to talk to them about what they are seeing and why it is important.  You'd have to explain the possible shots and why you were making the choices you did.  You'd have to engage her in conversation as she learned more about The Game and its architecture.  

You'd have to be attentive enough on the trek between holes and patient enough with the novitiate that she would want to do it again.  And again.  And again.  You'd have to enjoy being together on the golf course, and let her know that you enjoyed it.  Basically, you'd have to teach her ... as you might a son ... and treat her the way she likes to be treated, as she learns.  

From what I've seen, many men think that other men view the golf course as a place for the fellas to hang out, a place to get away from the fairer sex.  I know from my own experience that there were times when that Armenian fellow I was hanging around with was a little uncomfortable taking me along, especially at first.  He wasn't sure what the reaction of the other fellas would be, and it took many surprisingly (for him) good experiences before he realized that it really is ALWAYS okay if I tag along.  

I don't think there's ever been a case where one of the fellas minded my presence, and I certainly never felt awkward or out of place.  But his initial fears did come into play, and if I'd been any less determined to go, I'm sure I would've stayed home, having sensed his unease.  

So, if you want more women to tune into this board, you'll have to invite discourse in real life with women about your . . . let's not call it an obsession . . . let's call it your passion.  It's hard to get excited about something you know nothing about.

[guesst]

. . . I will encourage my wife Lisa to participate more (even if she underestimates the 14th at Kapalua)

So if she underestimates it, does she end up in the rocks? That is my favorite hole Kapalua; the most fun to watch people "underestimate," and the most joyful sight when all the little white balls are clustered on the green.

[TEPaul]

DarvaD:

I love you posts---#6 is a good one, and I wish we had many more women on here like you and as thoughtful as you are. (I wish we had more PEOPLE on here as thoughtful as you are).

To many men golf (and architecture) is "getting out with the boys" but if my own golf club is a representative example there are a good number too who only like to play with their wives---and their children.

As for the passion of golf architecture--for a man or a woman--that's hard to say what inspires it. I think whoever it is one probably needs to have a little bit of the artist in them to have it become a passion.

I've tried to get my wife involved in golf and in architecture to some degree and I think I've done all those things you wrote in your post you think are necessary to inspire someone. But my wife has  a very good and rather tough job and she's tired most of the time and I can also see what a fear and struggle golf is for her. With architecture she does try to understand it and to listen if I talk about it but I try not to do that too often because when I do I can see her eyes glaze over after a while, if you know what I mean.

I'm a big believer that if golf or golf architecture doesn't come sort of naturally as something someone really wants to do there's no reason on earth to force it one yourself or someone else.

[TEPaul]

Darva:

By the way, our new Green Chairman (chairperson?) is a woman. She's good---she's organized, runs a good meeting and although she's no expert on golf architecture right now she's very able and prepared to learn all about it. I just gave her three books on architecture to look over and pick one and I promised I'd buy a copy for every member of her Green committee--we'll probably settle on GeoffShac's "Grounds for Golf". I simply told her if we do that her job and that of the green committee will become easier and more cohesive---decision making will not be so hodge-podge as it sometimes can become.

She's also a very good player, probably in the top half dozen in this region and you can see her instincts are in that area--she is a player first and looks at golf and architecture that way. But I think her perspective will be very important---because the problems with green committees generally is they tend to become dominated by a "good player" (good male player) mentality and perspective and they sort of forget to consider the rest. I've tried to tell them when considering any question to do with golf, architecture or maintenance, think first of the very good player (mostly for spatial reasons) but then filter the question or situation through the perspective of each level of golfer too. That's such an important and necessary thing to do and when done and done correctly the whole jigsaw puzzle tends to fall nicely into place---not to mention that whole memberships tend to be happier and more respectful of their green committee.

[gholland]

Darva:

By the way, our new Green Chairman (chairperson?) is a woman. She's good---she's organized, runs a good meeting and although she's no expert on golf architecture right now she's very able and prepared to learn all about it. I just gave her three books on architecture to look over and pick one and I promised I'd buy a copy for every member of her Green committee--we'll probably settle on GeoffShac's "Grounds for Golf". I simply told her if we do that her job and that of the green committee will become easier and more cohesive---decision making will not be so hodge-podge as it sometimes can become.

She's also a very good player, probably in the top half dozen in this region and you can see her instincts are in that area--she is a player first and looks at golf and architecture that way. But I think her perspective will be very important---because the problems with green committees generally is they tend to become dominated by a "good player" (good male player) mentality and perspective and they sort of forget to consider the rest. I've tried to tell them when considering any question to do with golf, architecture or maintenance, think first of the very good player (mostly for spatial reasons) but then filter the question or situation through the perspective of each level of golfer too. That's such an important and necessary thing to do and when done and done correctly the whole jigsaw puzzle tends to fall nicely into place---not to mention that whole memberships tend to be happier and more respectful of their green committee.

Tom -

You've now enlightened me as to why I need to add a lady golfer to our "archiving committee".  A lady golfer's perspective towards golf course design & architecture is exactly what will help sell perserving our course as a CBM/Raynor design.  All the men with whom I speak just want to talk about extending the length of the course and adding their own personal tweak.  

[TEPaul]

George:

Here's the best tip of all to get respect for a green commitee or a project from the rest of the membership. As you said and we all know, green committee members, even if they aren't good players, all tend to look at the course and it's architecture from the very good and almost always the very long player's perspective. I have no idea why that is (actually I do but there's no point in saying it), I just know that it is though. It's also ridiculous, unrealistic and a prescription for dissatisfaction amongst general memberships as 95% of them are not good and not long.

Here's the tip. You get that player (or players) on the green committee who really are good and long and you have him go out and talk to as many members as possible who ARE NOT good and long and ask those other members about how they look at it and feel about it. And you tell him he better care what they're telling him or do a damn good job of at least acting like he cares what they say. And furthermore tell him he better also act like he UNDERSTANDS exactly what they're saying!

If you can do that and the degree to which you can do that you'll not believe what the reaction will be---amazingly positve and the adverserialness will start to fade away like a light morning fog on a coming sunny day!

Just about 90% of general memberhips are inherently suspicious of very good players and their mentality---they admire the way they play but they definitely DO NOT admire the way they look at THEIR golf course if it's only from a good player's perspective, as it generally is!

Mark my words---the more of that you can do the easier a project or anything else to do with the work of a green committee will become!

[Mike_Sweeney]

Ernie looks like he is having fun !

[Robert Emmons]

Thats Cindy and Ernie at the Omega European Masters in Crans-Sur Sierre, Switzerland in the Pro Am...RHE

[tlavin]

I only have two rules in my life: I don't golf with women and I don't sleep with men.  Everything else is fair game...

[JakaB]

redanman,

I see this a relevant question..so don't be offended.  Is she your first wife...because if she is..I apologize for every mean thing I have ever thought or said about you.

[A_Clay_Man]

Tlavin- On the first point, you really are missing-out. And on the second, ...that's an excellent rule.

[Bill_McBride]

"Not that's there's anything wrong with that."  -- Seinfeld.

[A_Clay_Man]

Never heard that phrase. Would it be similar to: Good from far, far from good?

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

Not liking to play with a really lousy golfer has nothing to do with whether the lousy golfer is a woman or a man. If it's not liking to play with a lousy golfer just say so, or if it's not liking to play with women just say that too---since political correctness doesn't seem to interest you at all!  

[guesst]

If it's not liking to play with a lousy golfer just say so, or if it's not liking to play with women just say that too---

Thank you, kind sir.  It seems to me that speed of play is more important than anything else.  I have been to tournaments where I, as lousy as I am, could've moved faster than the men I was watching.  I have seen men hit out of bounds into the trees on every tee shot. I have spent far more time looking for their balls than I have ever spent looking for mine.  "I don't hit it far, but I do hit it straight."  

I have seen men standing in the sand take three or four strokes to get  out . . . and then end up in the trap on the other side of the green.  I have seen a man six putt.  At what point do you pick up your ball and move on?  I'd say when everyone else is done, you'd best be done, too, and that has nothing to do with the "equipment" you carry.  

To comment on women's role on green committees, it seems to me it would be nice to have a shorter hitters input.  The golf course plays differently from the reds, and far too often the tees seem like an afterthought.  They're placed closer to the pin, making it possible to get to the green without having to fly a hazard (which is good, or I'd be always in the pond), but it's really not enough to merely move the tee box closer and forget about it.  There's no joy of decision making if all you have to think about is "plink, plank, plunk" down the middle, putt, and go.  I never have to be brave or foolish enough to "go for it."  I can't!  But it sure is nice when the architecture from blue and black is just right . . . and there's something for the reds to think about, as well.  

I've been to a lot of courses with someone who cares deeply and passionately about golf architecture . . . and frankly, I'm not sure he ever even notices there ARE red tees, much less where they are placed and how the course would play from them.  Unless we're prepared to say it doesn't matter if the shorter hitters enjoy the golf course, we shouldn't rule them out in the decision making process.  And when we make the architecture interesting for them, perhaps they'll be more interested in architecture . . . ?  

[TEPaul]

Darva:

I think the last time I remember my wife playing golf was at the Maidstone with another husband and wife and me. My wife just isn't good enough to keep an acceptable pace up and she was so nervous she was taking a lot of time over shots. The tide of some older men members came rolling from being at us like waves and I just told her to let them play through (you don't want to even break the step of people like that). I didn't tell her until later but it was pretty funny what she did. Frankly she was so nervous and concentrating on what she was trying to do she never noticed any of those groups coming up and every time I told her to let them play through she'd grab her ball and run into the scrub brush. Later I told her it was OK to leave her ball where it was!  

[A_Clay_Man]

Dave,

the odds are WAY THE HECK stacked against you if that person is a woman.  Dems' da facts, and I just don't understand why people won't just fess up and admit it.

If I told you this is a Chicago Public golf course phenom, and that in other areas of the country the odds are better, she'll be better, would you believe me? and more importantly recognize the dymanics of the subjectivity involved? Metropolitian golf that is.

Would ya huh? Woulda ya?

Darva darl'in, I love how quick you are at picking-up on the intricacies of our sport. If I may, I'd like to help crystalize this comment

It seems to me that speed of play is more important than anything else

while speed of play is a very personal thing, the origin, or crux, is more along the lines of reducing or completely removing "undue delay". This is all about considering others. But certainly, not to the extent that when you may need an extra waggle now and then, you can't take it. No no. You most certainly may take it

The best solution I'd suggest to someone who may have a chronic is to start their routine earlier, when possible.

[TEPaul]

"There's always some silly contorted rationale about how if the kid wasn't on dope, actually did his homework, wasn't truant all the time, didn't fall asleep in class, didn't try to light his teacher's car on fire in the parking lot, etc., he'd be a fine student.  Nonsense."

Shivas:

That's pretty funny but I know why we Americans rationalize those things. For some odd reason when they told us what the American Promise was we weren't listening carefully enough. What they meant to say is the country would TRY to offer all of us "equality of opportunity" (if we did are part in the bargain) but for some reason most of us thought they said we were all created equal or that if we weren't somehow the country would make us all equal!  When we grew up and figured out that wasn't so we had to create "political correctness" to make our embarrassment and mortification less severe!

Good listeners are very hard to come by!    

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

Would you just look at the way redanman writes that last post!? It's almost unintelligible--it sounds like some young black street corner crack pushin' rapper. You know what I think? I think redanman secretly wants to be Tiger Woods but he's completely conflicted because Tiger's so rich and famous but inexplicably (to redanman) Tiger's black and to redanman that doesn't compute. This could also explain why he secretly hates Tiger Woods!

How's that for political incorrectness (on my part that is)?

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