[Ran Morrissett]

This post is a spin off from Geoff's Interview. In a Golf Journal (?) article a number of years ago, F. Hannigan said par fives were Tillie's sole weakness. Who agrees with that statement? Relative to the other great architects, where would everybody put Tillie when it comes to designing of par five holes?

[John Sessions]

I am not in the best position to comment having only played six courses in the northeast. Of those, there is only one par five I would call great - the 4th at Bethpage. I disagree with Geoff that the 17 and 18 at Baltusrol are great holes (good and sound but not great) - uphill wedge shots are not my cup of tea.

[DBE]

Perhaps Frank Hannigan wasn't way off base saying Tillinghast designed weak par fives....but except for Five Farms, where else can the good ones be found?Quaker Ridge--don't you love the new bunkers added during the recent redo on #14?  Number one ain't much, especially with the huge, oval bunker about 75 yards from the green.Winged Foot--geez, I don't know what's a par five and what's a par four after all the US Opens there, but the 12th on the West is kinda awkward.Somerset Hills--Number six is kinda neat through the race track and the green is unique, but it's a no risk driver and long to medium iron.  The ninth is nice but have you seen where the tee shot fairway is?  New tee has been built to the left of originals to prevent long hitters from playing down #1.Number 10 wasn't originally a par five.  It's the only substanative change from his design.San Francisco--Numbers one and 18 aren't much.  Perhaps #9 was good when there was an area of sand to negotiate.Bethpage Black--Better play there quick before there are no par fives.  I think the seventh will be one of those nowhere to hit a driver 480 yard par four during the Open.Ridgewood--nopeBrook Hollow--nope, padnaSunnehanna--not a good hole on the course regardless of its parPhilly Cricket--nothing that hits me

[Tillie]

I had two dandies at Philadelphia Cricket Club...they can be seen in Geoff's new book, as they have been ruined. Don't forget that Green Committees have changed many of my holes, so please don't judge me by what exists today. Particularly that dreadful tenth at Somerset HIlls. Ugh.

[Ran Morrissett]

Who is the best par five builder then? I guess Crump went 2 for 2, which will be the best batting average!

[DBE]

Mackenzie--Cypress Point's second and sixth are interesting, Crystal Downs' eighth, Augusta National's 13th, U of Michigan's third--all better than anything Tillinghast did.

[JohnV]

Having only played Tillies two courses at Baltusrol, I would vote for #8 on the Upper course as my favorite par 5.  I liked the way the ridge that crossed the fairway came into play and the way the green sat up on the next ridge with the bunkers in front.  A real challange to hit in two and even if you layed up, hitting the green was not a given.

[Jim_Nagle]

I'm not sure Tillie would ever fess up to building great par 5's.  Two that can be added to the list as solid bordering on great are Newport's 7th and 10th.  And what wonderful holes they are.  The 7th has the large Sahara to the left side of the hole, which is to be restored to its old self, more sand and only four mounds.  And the 10th has the corrugations in the fairway from the troops of LaFayette and Rouchembul(?) and one of the oldest greens still in use today.  These are not just peripheral features to the holes either they are incorporated into the play of the holes and both play with wonderful strategy.  

[Ran Morrissett]

to John V.:Great minds think alike - I have always thought 8 on the Upper was a super hole but actually, what did you think of the 11th too? I think that is indeed the best par five on the property and one of Tillie's very best.

[GeoffreyC]

I've got to agree that Tillinghast didn't design par 5's with the same genious he did for 4's and 3's.Bethpage #4 is a teriffic hole and from the back tee, #7 presents a wonderful and difficult tee shot to a narrow slanted fairway over a huge bunker that you choose how much to cut off.  Too bad it will be a 4 for the Open because the rest of teh hole is no great shakes.Baltusrol #17 is OK for a 3 shotter but here is my sleeper and maybe along with #4 at Bethpage my favorite.  #3 at Fenway CC in Scarsdale. The drive must avoid a large tree on the right and bunker on the left.  The hole narrows considerable in a layup area with valley the last 75 yards to a slightly uphill green with a cavernous bunker in front and death dropoff behind.  The green is more like a crazy CB Macdonald/Raynor creation, wide a nd narrow with two very distinct levels (left and right) separated by a big ridge in the green that runs front left to back right).  It's reachable for big hitters but the second shot requires extreme precision.  Over is death, right down the hill is worse.  Anyone else played it?

[GeoffreyC]

Sorry- #3 at Fenway - drive requires avoiding tree on LEFT and bunker to the RIGHT.  Dislexic moment

[Rollo Podmarsh]

Does anyone think the par 5 18th at SFGC is weak?  I didnt think so although the right side is contrained by the access road..

Great greenside bunker though on the left.

[Steve Curry]

How about this one??


Regards,
Steve

[Tyler Kearns]

Ran,

   According to A.W. Tillinghast ("The Course Beautiful"), he was one of the first people to walk the site of Pine Valley with George Crump. He states that it will always bring him satisfaction that 2 of his hole ideas were incorporated into the final design, the 7th & 13th. The seventh hole (par 5) representing Tillinghast's 'Sahara' hole concept, similar to 17th at Baltusrol & 4th at Bethpage Black. Certainly some of the credit you gave to Crump for this ingenius hole should be shared with Tillinghast.
   
Tyler Kearns

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Ran,

Ridgewood's par 5's are outstanding.

[mark chalfant]

  Ran,

I don't agree with Frank Hannigans 1974 assertion.

I feel that the par fives at San Francisco, Ridgewood,

and Newport are very strong.  I also like the par fives at

Baltusrol Upper#11 and Lower 17. Even more Five Farms long 6th and 14th in Baltimore.

Two other favorites are  Fenway's 3 and the sporty

#14 at Sands Point over rolling terrain on Long  Island.

The Sands  Point hole has some sharp slopes over the

course of  its  610 yards and an OB patrols the left edge to keep you honest.

   I've often found the par fives by Devereux Emmet, Langford&Moreau (West Bend,Skokie)  a long with Coore& Crenshaw  to be exemplary.


 In the 21st century the par fives of Tom Doak at Renaissance and Gil Hanse's Cavemen are often superb. Dismal River, Ballyneal,
Boston Golf Club and Caprock Ranch spring to mind.







   

[Matt_Ward]

I would say that A.W.'s record on par-5's is at best mixed. You have realy no par-5's of quality at Somerset Hills although the ones at Ridgewood are indeed much, much better. You have to say the final two holes at Baltusrol Lower are indeed unique to close out a round.

If I had to name a superb par-5 Tillie hole I would opt for the 4th at Bethpage Black. The new elevated tee keps the challenge at a high octane level and the chain reaction fairway bunker is well done -- just hit the rough and see how e-z it is to get over it. The greenside bunker is also well placed to keep the aggressive play at bay.

[TEPaul]

Tillinghast's concept of the true three shot (for any man) par 5 is interesting in exactly what kind of concept he was trying to accomplish. In essence, it was a bit like a medium length par 4 concept where a long man could potentially get a shortish iron in his hands if he blazed away off the tee. Tillinghast's "three shotter" concept was only the addition of blazing away with the second shot too (to get into position for a shortish third shot approach to the green).

However, these types of true "Three shotters" were not supposed to be just a 'slog'---there was supposed to be thoughtful risks for blazing away with your first two shots. The additional idea of this concept was if even a long man missed either of his first two shots he probably would not be able to reach the green in regulation three shots (this definitely was Crump's concept and he said so in no uncertain terms). In a way this isn't much different from the very long par 4 concept!!

In both Tillinghast's and Crump's "three shotter" concept these par 5s were NEVER supposed to be reached by anyone in two shots and according to Tillinghast the primary reason was frankly architectural----eg the green design was not intended to be for a long approach anyway!!! That's important to understand. The green design was intended more for a well played shorter shot---but the first two blazing shots were needed to set that up!!!

Crump should probably be the world's winner with this type of "three shot" hole---as Ran pointed out he definitely went 2 for 2 with this type on the two par 5s he ever built. It probably was Tillinghast's recommendation to create the 100 yard long cross bunker on PVGC's #7 to accomplish this "three shotter" purpose on that particular hole--as still today because of where Hell's Half Acre starts it's pretty hard for even the longest man to get within striking distance of that green!

[TEPaul]

By the way, probably by late this year or early next year PVGC's #7 will be about 620yds from the tips and #15 will be about 635 yds from the tips (but of course playing basically uphill, particularly in the end). Both these holes, particularly #7, should be optional driver holes again even for the very long man. #7's tee shot will run out into HHA around 340-350 from the tips now.

[Paul Perrella]

Steve C.

   If my eyes serve me correctly I am very familiar with this hole. It is an example where todays longer hitters would tear up this hole if it were not for the trees on the right side of the landing area. A well drawn tee shot down the right side "slot" makes this an excellent risk/reward hole.

          Paul

[Steve Curry]

Paul,

You are right, but I think some off the trees on the right and left should go.  The lay off the land leaves only a small slot to hit and get a big advantage.  Here is the comparative photo I have created for the master plan.

Regards,
Steve

[Agman]

All three par 5s at Newport are a blast. Seven is especially beautiful since the Sahara bunkers on the left were properly restored, and 10 does indeed have what I'm pretty sure is the oldest green in continuous use in the US. It's a straightforward hole -- downhill tee shot over a road to the famous furrows, and a small, two-level green that's that's deceptively difficult to read.
   Number 12 -- ah, that's a hole. The hole -- called Valley -- has a large bunker in play off the tee on the right edge of the fairway, and anything left is dead. On the second shot, a bunker on the left pinches the landing area about 135 yards out. Then the fun begins. The green, which slopes severely downhil, is guarded by bunkers right and left. Any approach shot above the pin is a thrill ride coming down. All that plus a glimpse of the top of clubhouse behind the high rise of the 13th green makes this a wonderful, strategic and challenging experience.  

js

[Agman]

Oops. Of course I meant the four par 5s at Newport. The opener is a short par 5, memorable mostly for the view to the ocean. I remember once standing on the tee and taking one last look down the fairway before beginning my swing when a tall ship sailed into view. We stood and stared for five minutes. Memorable, sure, but Tillie had nothing to do with that...

js

[Tyler Kearns]

TEPaul,

   Tillinghast was responsible for the "Hell's Half Acre" concept at #7 Pine Valley, and it is this hazard that accomplishes the theory which you credit to Crump - player missing either first or second shot will not be able to get home in regulation. Was Crump simply advocating very lengthy par 5's? Reading articles by Tillinghast, it was this exact same notion that he disliked in golf architecture because it generally produced rather banal holes. What makes the "Hell's Half Acre" hazard so great is that it produces an option for those who miss their drive, to lay-up and accept reaching green in 4 strokes or risk carrying hazard and compounding existing problems.

Tyler Kearns

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Agman,

I believe that holes # 1 and # 12 play as par 4's from the black (championship) tees.

I wouldn't call either a strong or good par 5 from the par 5 tees.  Perhaps average.

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