[cary lichtenstein]

After reviewing the top 100 ranking, I agree with other CGA's that the fudge factor is in the bonus points for tradition.

Could some one who is more computer literate than me, recast the numbers without those bonus points, so we could all look at it from a different perspective?

[Steve_L.]

Unfortunately - we cant see any beyond 100 can we..?  Many would have fallen in or out of the "bubble" without tradition...

[cary lichtenstein]

Wouldn't it be nice to see the top 200 then subtract the  tradition points and see the real top 100?

Maybe someone could ask Golf Digest to do that special for us?

Anyone have that much influence out there?

[John_Conley]

As I mentioned on my other thread, Vegis will do that.  He has reason to!  (See my other thread and I've done 1-12 with someone else adding the next 10.)

Unfortunately, it really isn't about computer literacy.  The GD data is in PDF format and needs to be typed in to an Excel file.  No shortcuts really possible.  If it came as an Excel I could do the adjustment and have it sorted in less than 60 seconds.

[texsport]

To find out which are actually the best golf courses in their ratings, please also delete the fudge factor points for walking.

Texsport

[Mike Erdmann]

Here are the "revised" Golf Digest rankings, taking out the bonus points for both tradition and walking.  I used the full version of Adobe Acrobat to extract the data from the Golf Digest .pdf file and massage it in Excel.  If anyone wants the full Excel spreadsheet, email me and I'll send it to you.

1    Pine Valley GC     (62.95)
2    Shinnecock Hills GC     (61.55)
3    Augusta National GC     (61.3)
4    Cypress Point Club     (61.02)
5    Pebble Beach G Links     (59.87)
6    Oakmont CC     (59.64)
7    Merion GC (East)     (58.81)
8    Sand Hills GC     (58.28)
9    Pacific Dunes     (58.19)
10   Wade Hampton GC     (58.18)
11   Muirfield Village GC     (57.9)
12   Winged Foot GC (West)     (57.87)
13   Crystal Downs CC     (57.75)
14   Victoria National GC     (57.71)
15   Oak Hill CC (East)     (57.34)
16   Seminole GC     (57.13)
17   Bethpage (Black)     (57.09)
18   Shadow Creek     (57.04)
19   Pinehurst Resort & CC (No. 2)     (57.01)
20   Oakland Hills CC (South)     (56.98)
21   National Golf Links of America     (56.97)
22   Medina CC (No. 3)     (56.88)
23   Bandon Dunes     (56.79)
24   Fishers Island Club     (56.72)
25   Southern Hills CC     (56.42)
26   The Olympic Club (Lake)     (56.38)
27   Prairie Dunes CC     (56.2)
28   Quaker Ridge GC     (56.18)
29   The Country Club (Clyde/Suirrel)     (56.16)
30   Whistling Straits (Straits)     (55.97)
31   The Quarry at La Quinta     (55.43)
32   Prince Course     (55.43)
33   Inverness Club     (55.31)
34   Los Angeles CC (North)     (55.3)
35   Winged Foot GC (East)     (55.29)
36   San Francisco GC     (55.24)
37   The Ocean Cse     (55.2)
38   Forest Highlands GC (Canyon)     (55.12)
39   The Honors Cse     (55.04)
40   Butler National GC     (54.85)
41   Olympia Fields CC (North)     (54.81)
42   The Estancia Club     (54.79)
43   Cherry Hills CC     (54.63)
44   Rich Harvest Links     (54.6)
45   Baltusrol GC (Lower)     (54.54)
46   Double Eagle Club     (54.53)
47   Somerset Hills CC     (54.5)
48   Milwaukee CC     (54.41)
49   Castle Pines GC     (54.34)
50   Blackwolf Run (River)     (54.3)
51   Scioto CC     (54.27)
52   Chicago GC     (54.24)
53   Garden City GC     (54.22)
54   Ocean Forest GC     (54.21)
55   The Golf Club     (54.07)
56   Riviera CC     (54.02)
57   Spyglass Hill G Cse     (53.99)
58   Black Diamond Ranch GC (Quarry)     (53.88)
59   Valhalla GC     (53.86)
60   Crooked Stick GC     (53.71)
61   Sycamore Hills GC     (53.57)
62   Long Cove Club     (53.56)
63   Shoal Creek     (53.47)
64   Peachtree GC     (53.42)
65   TPC at Sawgrass (Stadium)     (53.25)
66   Camargo Club     (53.19)
67   Interlachen CC     (53.17)
68   Grandfather G. & CC     (53.12)
69   Colonial CC     (53.11)
70   The Homestead (Cascades)     (53.11)
71   Laurel Valley GC     (53.1)
72   Plainfield CC     (53.06)
73   Cog Hill G&CC (#4)     (52.95)
74   Jupiter Hills Club (Hills)     (52.9)
75   Bellerive CC     (52.75)
76   Mauna Kea G Cse     (52.73)
77   Kittansett Club     (52.71)
78   Hazeltine National GC     (52.68)
79   Maidstone Club     (52.6)
80   Aronimink GC     (52.57)
81   Wannamoisett CC     (52.56)
82   Eugene CC     (52.33)
83   Shoreacres     (52.17)
84   Canterbury GC     (52.14)
85   Greenville CC (Chanticleer)     (52.12)
86   Baltimore CC (East)     (52.1)
87   Harbour Town G Links     (52.03)
88   Congressional CC (Blue)     (51.9)
89   Atlanta CC     (51.87)
90   Stanwich Club     (51.83)
91   Pine Tree GC     (51.76)
92   East Lake GC     (51.75)
93   Pasatiempo GC     (51.75)
94   The Dunes G. & Beach C.     (51.59)
95   Desert Forest GC     (51.53)
96   Sahalee CC (South/North)     (51.53)
97   Old Warson CC     (51.5)
98   Point O'Woods G & CC     (51.34)
99   Salem CC     (51.26)
100   NCR CC (South)     (51.1)

[Rick Shefchik]

I guess I haven't been paying attention to all the Wade Hampton threads at GCA. #10 in the US?

[Michael Moore]

Here is the Golf Digest top 100 with all the criteria stripped away:

[cary lichtenstein]

Mike Erdmann:

Thanks. Your list looks like the real thing!

Quasssi

[Mike Erdmann]

I know this has been hashed to death, but the whole "bonus point" fudge factor for tradition and walking is a complete farce.  On their website, Golf Digest defines the walking points as "rewarding courses that allow walking some or all of the time."  Look at the bonus-walking points for Pebble Beach and Pacific Dunes.  Pebble Beach, with concrete cart paths and electric carts, gets 1.68 bonus points for walking.  Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes, both courses that ban carts and  require you to walk, get only 1.61 bonus points for walking.  

It simply defies common sense and is proof positive that the Golf Digest numbers are so rediculously flawed that they can't even be taken seriously.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike E:

Thanks for posting the list, but a few quick thoughts (have not examined the entire list thus far). How does The Golf Club (New Albany, OH) only move up one spot from where it is (#56) to #55? Also, how does Garden City GC fall behind Rich Harvest Links? Cherry Hills in the top 50? Plainfield is #72?
The only plus note -- I'm glad to see Shinnecock Hills now only 2nd behind the great PV!

Gents, it's more than just taking the tradition and walking aspects out of the equation. Sad to say -- it's a bit more deeper than that -- how about some people don't know what the heck they are looking at?

[Tom_Doak]

My educated guess is that without the Tradition numbers, somewhere between twenty and fifty of the GOLF DIGEST top 100 would be off the list.  That's precisely why they hang onto it:  because to drop it would be an admission that either a) their list has serious flaws, or b) their definition of a "great course" has serious flaws.

When I get back in my office Monday, I'll look up the numbers from the 2001 Best New candidates, which they mailed to me with the award for Pacific Dunes.  Odds are that all the Best New winners would have more points without Tradition than NCR Country Club.  I'm curious to look back and see if Lost Dunes (third Best New in 2000) beats it.

[Chris Kane]

Lack of tradition drops Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes from the top 10 to #38 and #47 respectively.  Joke.

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

Chris,

Removing the Tradition criteria RAISES Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes UP to the Top Ten.

What's the joke about that?

[texsport]

If you're going out to play the best golf courses you can, nothing but shot values matters!

Top 10 Shot Value Courses:
(1) Pine Valley
(2)Shinnecock Hills
(3)Cypress Point
(4)Pebble Beach
(4)Merion
(6)Oakmont
(7)Augusta National
(8)Winged Foot West
(9)Pinehurst No.2
(10)Sand Hills

This list looks correct to me!

A simple review of the above list compared to the published Top 10 reveals a lot about the weakness of this rating system. Sand Hills is the 10th best course for shot values, but is dropped all the way to No. 38 overall because of very low Tradition Points. This is a fraud!

I'll take the Top 10 shot value courses every day, all day.

Texsport

[Mike_Cirba]

Texsport;

I think more than "shot values" as narrowly defined by GD is important in the assessment of a course.

I recently played Pacific Dunes, and I probably was forced to try more types of shots than any course I can recall in recent memories.

Among them;

A knee high 4-iron from 75 yards into a stiff wind for my 3rd shot on #4.

Another shot of the same type from about 140 to 14.  That one I took back to shoulder height.

A lofted sand wedge from 140 which bounded onto 13 and ran up close to a back hole location.

A hooded driver to get past the ladies tees on 18 from the tips.

A putt from 60 yards on #7, right into the left-hand bunker.

The softest and highest of cut shots from just below the left hand bunker on #6 to a front hole location.

An 8 iron from 190 yards on #17, which banked perfectly off the redan shoulder and finished 15 feet below the hole.

A drawing 9-iron approach to the left side of the #2 green, which caught the slope perfectly, and swung widely and hotely to within six feet of a back right hole location.

I'm not very good or consistent, but I certainly enjoy a course that forces me to use my imagination and whatever creativity I can muster.   

Interesting to me that none of those type of shots seem to be within the GD definition of "shot values".  

[Chris Kane]

Jeremy,
There's no joke about what you've said: all you've done is changed the order around.

The joke is that this "tradition" category has bumped both courses down, by 30 and 38 places respectively.  Put another way, the 800 GD raters ranked PD and SH in the top 10, but the editors thought differently.

Some might argue that tradition is important: but is it so important that a course in the top 10 (and hence one of the "great" courses) gets relegated to obscurity outside the top 35?

[texsport]

Mike_Cirba
     I'm not sure how GD defines shot values but I suspect they're over analytical. By my way of thinking, the recovery shots you had to hit were a product of not being able to make the shot required in a given situation because the shot values were very high. Are you thinking that resistence to scoring, whatever that is, should also be considered? I note that most courses have similar shot value and resistence to scoring ratings.

Another GD fraud is the Best Places To Play list which is nothing more than a compilation of votes submitted to the magazine. Ballot box stuffing is the name of the game here, yet they present the ratings as if there was a valid process in place to determine the best places to play. Or, lets say, you have to look pretty hard to notice this.

Texsport

[Matt_Ward]

texsport:

Got to agree with you regarding GD's "Places to Play." It's nothing more than the average "Joe" weighing in on what quality golf is about. Last I checked there were plenty of "Joe's" who still think McDonald's is cuisine! All you get from a "Places to Play" guide is a Zagat's approach to assessing courses -- asking the masses is one thing -- getting real insights is quite another thing.

If someone has played dogfood tracks for much of their lives it doesn't take much to impress them on what "quality" golf is about. How do I know? I grew up playing dogfood tracks and my understanding of courses today is leap years beyond what it was then. At least I think so -- bow wow!

[THuckaby2]

Matt:

Fully agreed, and love the humor.  Even I won't defend "Places to Play." in terms of any quality assessment. The comments alone say all one needs to know about that.

I'd advise people use that only for basic info and take it for what it's worth. In that context, it is useful.

Kinda like Zagat's.

Woof!

TH

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