[Anthony_Pioppi]

The December issue of the New England Journal of Golf - a new monthly pubication - will have a story on The Hotchkiss (Conn.) School Golf Course. Raynor designed the course while working at Yale. Banks, an English teacher at Hotchkiss during construction, met Raynor and fell in love with golf architecture. The article details Raynor's work, the subsequent renovations by Banks due to road construction, as well as the current work of Mr. Bahto. There is also a never-before-seen photo of Banks taken from a Hotchikiss yearbook that was dedicated to him.

[Scott_Burroughs]

GeoffreyC,   Thanks for jogging my memory on what the holes look like (it was July of last year when I played there).  #4 REALLY is downhill. Even the weather looks the same, overcast.  Add in rain on #11 and you've got it perfect  .

[Bill Brightly]

Neat old thread on my man Charlie!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

One of my favorite holes at Forsgate- The Horseshoe #12:






What other courses have this hole?

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

You should see what it's like to play an approach to the 12th when the pin is cut in the far right or far left corners. Very demanding indeed.

One other thing -- the quartet of par-3's at the Banks Course / Forsgate is only behind the offerings found at PV and Plainfield, IMHO.

[Brad Swanson]

Steve,
   Assuming that your picture shows the tee in the distance, is there pinnable space on the left side of the green left of the horseshoe?  I've seen pictures of this green a number of times and have always wondered where one could reasonably place the cup.

Cheers,
Brad

[Phil Benedict]

Scott - MattThe Redan at Whipporwill is really bad - it is the one with over the pond - most people think that one is the Eden hole Banks' Redans don't make it, although they play a bit better than they lookI love WW but I wish the par-3s were up to the standards of the rest of the course (exclude the Short hole, just over the road) - even #8 is weak for a Biarritz - yes it has the length but is lacking some character.

According to the club website, the Redan is 17, which is not over a pond.  The hole George is referring to is 11.

The lacking of character Biarritz has the green beginning in front of the swale, which wasn't the case in 2001.

http://www.whippoorwillclub.org/

[Doug Siebert]

One of my favorite holes at Forsgate- The Horseshoe #12:






What other courses have this hole?

Holy crap Steve, is that hole for real?  If you'd posted that on April 1st I would have had a good laugh and applauded your ability with Photoshop.

I'm sorry, but that goes beyond quirk into the range of silly as far as I'm concerned.  Its sort of the inverse of the original Kingsbarns 9th green, which I've been told has been redone since apparently I wasn't the only one who thought it was ridiculous.

It would be fun to see how hard I could hit a putt and keep it in that bowl and how many revolutions I could get the ball to make.  Reminds me of the tilt-a-whirl at the carnival!

[TEPaul]

Basically with a name like Steamshovel and most of the architecture he created there's not much chance he will ever become a forgotten man.

The photo of that green above??

Are you kidding me???

Somebody is trying to be satirical here, right?

[David Stamm]

Reminds me of one of the greens at the local putt-putt.  

[Bill Brightly]

Tom,
I agree that he went over the top on a few holes at Forsgate. But Banks also built this hole, one of the most natural looking holes you will ever find:



Over the years, the floor of this redan bunker has been raised by "modernizers" but it remains a fabulous hole.  This was his first solo effort, and my theory is that he stuck very close to what Raynor taught him. I believe that Forsgate was his last course (before the Depression hit and then he went to South America) and he tried to put his mark on the templates by going bigger and more extreme. In some cases he went too far, IMO, but he got it right far more often.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom

I'm surprised that the Horseshoe hole has not been replicated more often. Isn't it the epitome of quirk?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Looks to be as influenced by the old 12th at Garden City as the standard CBMac horseshoe green, because outside the ridge (at least on the right as we look) is not useable for cups.

Could Banks have been stepping out, or did someone just short that side of the green?

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

There's nothing wrong with the short hole at the Banks Course at Forsgate.

Puhleeeze, enough of the moanin about the hole being goofy when I see plenty of things talked about on this site from across the pond that are a good bit more so on the funky / quirky / goofy side of things.

One other thing -- the hole plays under 150 yards from the tips and shorter from other positions. There's more than enough room to land the ball on all the spots on the green and it's quite a fine hole -- of course, for those who have never played it you can only weigh in with a deep left field analysis from what the photo provides.

[wsmorrison]

Matt,

I have played the hole and I find it to be somewhat interesting to play but a terrible design none-the-less that looks simply horrible.  

You pontificate that there's nothing wrong with the hole.  That is your opinion, it is not a universal truth as you would have it regarded.  Sorry, but we are allowed our difference of opinion.  There is no right and wrong in this sort of consideration.

One other thing, the funk/quirk/goof you mention on courses overseas or in the US is generally a result of the hole juxtaposed to natural features or natural looking features.  They aren't the result of a raised circle with a perfectly symmetrical curved mound in the interior.  It looks completely contrived.  

I never liked this feature despite its playability.  You should realize that it has to be controversial and some, like me, are entitled to their opinions even though we have the effrontery of disagreeing with you.

[Matt_Ward]

Then be sure to apply the standard you've articulated to other similar type designs from other architects (some of whom also came from the classic period) using the same construction techniques.

I salute you in having an opinion AFTER PLAYING THE HOLE. Others are just weighing in because of a photo -- which I have always maintained is nothing more than surface level analysis at best. My experience with the hole also comes from multiple times playing it in a vast array of circumstances.

One last item -- I give wide latitude to holes and design features provided the good shot is consistently rewarded and the poor one proportionally penalized. If the hole featured were in the range of 200+ yards I could see the argument you've pushed forward as being valid. I have no "universal truth(s)" -- nor does anyone else for that matter. Given the hole's short length -- especially from middle and front tee areas, I respectfully see it another way.

So be it.

[wsmorrison]

Thanks, Matt.  I appreciate your reply.  I know you've long been a fan and champion of Raynor and Banks in general and Forsgate in particular.  You may recall, the reason I visited Forsgate was your recommendation to do so.  It was a fun course to play although there are design characteristics that are open to criticism.  

I can surely appreciate, especially from the debate on this site, that there are people who are passionate fans of the style.  However, the most recognizable style in all of golf architecture is that way because of concept commonalities, otherwise known as repetition.  I think when students of golf architecture look at the photo of this green at Forsgate, the only thing that is lacking in their understanding is the experience of playing the hole.  It is so off the charts weird that much can be determined even from a photograph.  In this case, a picture reveals quite a bit.

Why Banks did not evolve his style and design concentric circular mounds is beyond me

 

[Matt_Ward]

Wayne M:

If you analyze the other par-3's at Forsgate you will see the unique contributions Banks made using the Eden, Redan and Biaritz models -- plus the Short. They are each spectacular with green sites that are well-crafted IMHO. I can only hope the folks at Forsgate would fully restore the par-3 17th to include green area that is nor nothing more than fairway height grass. A pity.

Ditto his work at Essex County, The Knoll and Hackensack (all NJ) as other examples.

What's important to point out is that Banks and Raynor basically followed a formulaic style in so many of their designs. What's equally amazing is how certain people on GCA will ridicule modern designers and their products for doing such a similar thing -- but because Banks, Raynor, et al, come from the 1920's period of design it's given little thought for being so consistently repetitive and often times far from being imaginative.

Like I said in my previous reply -- if the hole pictured were more than a short iron then it's design premise would spark my ire -- although I can see the other point of view.

[wsmorrison]

What, you didn't like my idea of concentric circles  

[Matt_Ward]

Wayne:

If you check with a number of the modern designers (Doak, Dye et al, Spann, Engh, Moran, etc, etc) you will find a wide array of green styles that were basically the creation of someone in their office -- not as a result of natural features or natural looking features as you originally stated.

I've played a wide array of courses in which the finished green product is often at odds with the natural features but still does work quite well.

I'm not into the style elements as some are here the so-called "look" -- I judge things by the nature of how the game is played and whether shots played to such targets are in keeping with the fundamental premise of the game -- good shots rewarded and poor shots penalized proportionally.

[Dean Paolucci]

Matt - I have to agree with you from a “playability” standpoint the hole is very reasonable.  I like you have played the course in excess of 10 times and find no problem with any of the pin positions.  Additionally, I find the green visually pleasing to MY eye.  I happen to be a Banks devotee having grown up at The Knoll.  Let the debate rage on!

DEAN

[Bill Brightly]

I've played this hole many times. It  I HATE the look of this picture, but I would never have guessed it was the Short at Forsgate, because the look from the tee is so different.
It really amazing how pictures can mislead!

Having said that, I think this hole is not one of his best efforts. He built a far better Short at Hackensack, with the horseshoe rim much "thinner" in the back.

It's hard to argue that this green at Forsgate does not present an engineered look, but the rest of the course does not. What the course DOES present is stunning trap depths and real challenges to tha player. And it is FUN. The bunkers on the par 5's (8 and 9?) are spectaular because of their depth, but Banks simply used the natural slope of the land. The "steamshovel" nickname is cute, and seems to fit the purposes of Banks' critics, but it is misleading and unfair. He used tha natural slope FAR more often than the steamshovel...

[Matt_Ward]

Bill / Dean, et al:

What does it matter if the course is "engineered?"

All of the land the Banks course is on was substanially altered through the use of man's hands / steam shovel, etc, etc.

I don't doubt that having superlative natural land is the ideal but that's more the exception than the rule.

Like I said previously, the collective four par-3 holes at Forsgate are really solid -- ditto the unique back-to-back par-5 holes you see with the uphill 8th (one of the best holes in all of Jersey but often rarely noticed) and the stellar par-5 9th with its elevated green -- not to forget the deeeeeep bunker on the left side of the green.

What hurts Forsgate is that it sits in no man's land -- halfway between Phillie and NYC -- few ever realize what's there when passing Exit 8A on the NJ Tpke.

[Bill Brightly]

"What hurts Forsgate is that it sits in no man's land -- halfway between Phillie and NYC -- few ever realize what's there when passing Exit 8A on the NJ Tpke."

Oh geeze, here come the New Jersey jokes...

[Dean Paolucci]

Matt - I am in agreement with you not at odds.  Most of the work at the Knoll was engineered albeit a better piece of land to start with.  No chance 9 and 18 just occured in nature the way they are laid out.  There was a good bit of Engineering which took place.

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