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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« on: September 10, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
How many courses did Banks do solo? I have been in the parking lot at Forsgate and it looked awfully good from what I saw. What else has he done? Is history giving him his due?
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JohnV

Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
According to Cornish and Whitten, he did 13 solos.  He is credited with solo efforts on:Maryland: Annapolis Roads GC(9)New Jersey: Essex County CC (West); Forsgate CC (East);Hackensack CC (27); Knoll GC; Rock Spring CCNew York: Tamarack CC; Westhampton CC( Oneck Cse NLE)Virginia: Cavalier G&YCBermude: Castle HarbourColumbia: CC of Bogota (NLE)Venezuela: Caracas CC; Junko CCHe also did 6 remodels and expansions.  He is credited with helping Raynor/Macdonald/Barton on 8 courses.For those who don't know, he was nicknamed Steam Shovel because "he was an enthusiastic beliver in massive earth moving to create huge elevated greens and deep bunkers."Legend has it that he had a steam shovel disappear into a pond as it was excavating at the Whippoowill Club and that it is still there today under the 6th fairway.All the above is from C&W, I've never been to any of his courses.
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Tom_Egan

Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Ran, count me for the following:  Essex West, Forsgate, Hackensack, The Knoll, Rock Spring, Tamarack and Castle Harbour.  I believe Forsgate is the best of this bunch, closely followed by Hackensack and The Knoll.Castle Harbour is the most eccentric and, obviously, the most scenic.  Essex West was part of the 36 hole Essex County Country Club and was sold to the town of West Orange (I believe) 25-35 years ago and is now called Francis Byrne Municipal.  Much changed over the years, I believe.  My understanding is that Forsgate and The Knoll are the least bastardized of this group over the years, and are a true pleasure to play and study.  I believe Banks also did a solo job on either the #3 or #4 nine at Montclair Golf Club.  Ross did the other 27.  The Jones Clan has made numerous changes over the years at MGC -- how much to Banks' work, I don't know.
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
I've had as my home course since 1955 three Charlie Banks courses.  A muni in Belleville he built for theEssex County Park Commission which has been called Branch Brook (a hustler's hangout by the way)and is know known as Hendricks field. After 7 years I played at Essex County West, yes, now bastardizedand yes, called Francis Byrne (a county course). For the past 25 years or so I have been at The Knoll.Gee I thought all greens had those huge mounds in them.The Knoll's greens are the most original - they never had enough money to alter them much. Knoll, Forsgate, Tamarack are very dramatic but I think Whippoorwill was his best work.  Unfortunatelyour illustrious president (small "p") may be moving close by Whippoorwill so it may be all over for theneighborhood.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TEPaul

Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Speaking of "the forgotten man", a noted architect mentioned that the actual work of most if not all of Perry Maxwell's "Maxwell Rolls" was the work of one man (contractor?,shaper?) whose name is lost in history. If Maxwell wasn't golf's greatest green builder, who was?
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Ted_Sturges

Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
To Tepaul,His mentor, or the 37 year old today who idolizes his mentor.
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Charles Henry Banks

Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Tom Egan:  I did the 4th nine at Montclair Country Club. They gave me a most terrible piece of property to work with and worse, I was saddled with the problem of trying to make my nine not look out of place compared to the ridiculous routing of Mr. Ross' other three nines. My 4th nine at Montclair is the one all the members want to play.And all you people do is go on and on with the "Stemshovel" thing.  Get over it!  The use of a steamshovel is kind of what you people do today, isn't it?My parner Mr. Raynor and I had nearly thirty courses under ccontract or construction at the time he died. The steamshove was the most efficient way to complete the workToo bad I lost the Cypress Point contract he routed just before he died.  You would have remembered me for more than "Steamshovel".Just call me "Josh" Banks.
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cbanks

Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
im back
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GeoffreyC

Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
I played Whippoorwill CC a few weeks ago and it is really outstanding.  Its routed on a fairly severe piece of land (almost like French Lick) near the Kensico Dam in Westchester county and this resulted in several really wild holes.  The signature redan and biarritz holes are not that great but there is a wonderful short hole and many really unique holes with turbo-boost downhill features and uphill ridges to contend with.  As expected form Banks, the greens are large and fairly wildly undulating.The course was nicely restored by Ken Dye and to his credit, you have no idea that he did any work. I wish it played a lot firmer but it was otherwise in outstanding shape. Whippoorwill is both fun to play and an excellent test of golf.
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Matt_Ward

Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Ran:Banks is very much underappreciated fellow in design!Thanks in mentioning Forsgate. I believe it is one of New Jersey's top ten courses and until the last several years was not really prepped on the daily basis the way it should be.The course has a number of great holes -- specifically the par-3 3rd, in my opinion one of the Garden State's best par-3 holes.The back-to-back par-5's 8th and 9th are also interesting because they are so different. The finishing three holes are also special -- each so different than the other.I think it's fair to mention that Banks completed the work started by Seth Raynor on Essex County (private) / West Orange. The course typlifies much of what Banks did in his designs and in my opinion the back nine of holes at Essex County is as good as any 9-holes in the state -- including PV!I also agree with George Bahto on the magnificience of The Knoll. I'm looking forward to his efforts in restoring the qualities that made The Knoll a course of historic quality.The influence of Banks in NJ is certainly present with Essex County, Forsgate, The Knoll and Hackensack, to name his best efforts. Whippoorwill is also a solid effort by Banks, but if I had to choose I'd still go with Forsgate. Can't wait for George to finish with The Knoll because like he stated the greens were never really touched or altered from their original design. Regards,
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Paul Turner

Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
A question for George, are there plans to cut the Biarritz swale to green height?
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Paul Turner

Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Forgot the course!  The Biarritz at The Knoll.
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BillV

Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
I've played 4 and they are all worth playing above many courses.  Is Castle Harbour N.L.E. yet?  
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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
GeoffreyC,    You'll have to remind me which par 3's you're referring to at Whippoorwill.  For the short, there's either #4 or #17 (159 or 158 yards), though #4 plays 'short'-er being downhill.  For the redan, #17 has the trap front left, but it's only 158, and #11 has a pond, but I think a trap front left and is the right distance at 186.For biarritz, #8 is the long one, but I don't remember a 'gully' in it.It's definitely a good course, with #6 and #7 as the quirky holes I believe people probably refer to when talking about Whippoorwill.#6 is uphill lay-up drive, downhill lay-up second shot (for flat third), then third to tiered green with a very small tier in the back.#7 is weirdly angled non-driver tee shot (unless hooked big-time, sliced in your case) over pond trying to cut off as much as possible to longish very uphill 2nd to green you can't hold easily given type of shot coming in.  If you're short, may roll back 50+ yards, make green and roll over to bank for downhill chip to downhill green.#9 is extremely uphill 373 yard par 4 which may play about as long as #8 (381) at Lehigh.
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Paul:  at present there are no plans to return the 13th, Biarritz, to all putting surface.However ........... let me get the bunker restoration started there and I should be able to talk them into doing it. (you can't have clubs (etc) thinking about too many things at once     )I spoke to the original super a few years ago and he told me it was all putting surface but I doubt it was that way when built.I think you can accomplish the same effect (full green) by keeping the forward section close cropped, like collar, and keeping it really firm. With that situation you really promote a ground game because you will be very uncomfotable trying to slide a wedge under such a tight lie if you come up short. More important: you afford the higher handicap player a chance to roll the ball on to a green he may not be able to reach.What is really going to make a difference at The Knoll is getting the bunker depths back to what they once.After some probing, I found most of them were over a foot deeper - even out in the fairways. You just can't keep adding sand for 70 years.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Scott - MattThe Redan at Whipporwill is really bad - it is the one with over the pond - most people think that one is the Eden hole Banks' Redans don't make it, although they play a bit better than they lookI love WW but I wish the par-3s were up to the standards of the rest of the course (exclude the Short hole, just over the road) - even #8 is weak for a Biarritz - yes it has the length but is lacking some character.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Matt_Ward

Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
I'm in the process in trying to set up a GCA outing at Forsgate. If it can't come together for this season I hope to have something for 24-30 people sometime early 2002. It's a must for any true Banks fan or for those who really have not seen his best work.Forsgate is very much underappreciated by so many people and I credit existing management in getting the course back to where it should have been long ago.George --I can't wait to see your plans for The Knoll in actuality -- particularly the increased depth of the greenside bunkers! One last thing -- keep in mind what I said about extending the tee at #18 and a few other holes. The Knoll should not be compromised because of gains made through technology. If any additional yardage can be gained that does not take away Banks original philosophy I say go for it!Regards,
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Paul Turner

Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
GeorgeEveryone loves the wild Double Plateau 2nd green at The Knoll (for those who haven't seen it, it's about as severe as North Berwick's 16th), is it the severest one that Banks built?  Did Raynor or Macdonald build any so wild?
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Patrick_Mucci

Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
George BAhto,My limited recollection of the 13th at the Knoll is that the swale and pre swale were not mowed to green as of the late 50's.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 05:02:10 PM by Patrick_Mucci »
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Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
How much influence did Banks have on other CBM/SR courses?I played Whippoorwill in the '95 Local US Open qualifying. I remember it as a real sporty course with obvious Raynor influences.A great stretch is the par 5 sixth, the strange downhill then uphill dogleg left 7th and a cool long par 3, 8th (biarritz?). Overall the course is an above average Westchester course. I asked a member about the steam shovel, he thought it was in the pond on #11. (I don't know how this could be considered a redan.) What a green though.
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Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
The Knoll is public, correct?
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Paul - most of the double plateau greens they built are pretty wild - the one I built at Stonebridge is about 11,000 ft and is cocked at a little different angle than most - very hard to get at the outer plateauxThe problem I have with this type green is that on each level (plateau) there is really  not a lot happening. The putts between the pleateaux are interesting but not the ones on each level.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Patrick_Mucci

Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Craig,The Banks course is semi-private, the other course public.
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GeoffreyC

Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
ScottGeorge Bahto already filled you in on the par 3's at Whippoorwill.  As I said before, they are weak exceept for the short hole (4th)There is a cool old photo of the short hole on page 47 of Geoff's book (golden age of golf design).  It was listed there as the 13th but the 9's were reversed at one time. The bunkering no longer rings the green but its still a good on with a nice narrow horseshoe in the green.As an aside, there are also cool photos of Castle Harbor on page 46.  Waht a shame to see that course being plowed under.I did not recognize the biarritz 8th until I walked down the hill.  The swale is not eviedent from the tee.  Its also far to wet to ever think of running the ball through the swale.  The redan  The dogleft hole where the notorious steamshovel is supposted to be buried in the lake just off the tee (not see in the photo)  
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BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Steam Shovel: the forgotten man?
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Re: Castle HarborI was in Bermuda a couple of months ago and talked our host into driving through the Castle Harbor development.  Lots of hotel construction going on, but one of the nines was still open for play.  I tried to talk our group into playing it, but they wanted to get back to Mid Ocean.We were told that several holes will be incorporated into the new course. Other Banks holes are to be changed only slightly.I have nothing more specific.  It does appear, however, that at least parts of the course will continue to exist.
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