Pat Ward-Thomas - Updated

[Ran Morrissett]

Mr. Ward-Thomas came up with his eclectic 18 around 1976. A lot of great courses have been built since then.Do you think the course below is "better" than Mr. Ward-Thomas's? For fun and enjoyment, given all the risk/reward options, I do.  (Yardages are extremely approximate)1. Sand Hills - 550 yards2. National, Australia - 140 yards3. Spanish Bay - 380 yards4. World Woods - 540 yards5. Cabo del Sol - 440 yards6. Legends Heathland - 460 yards7. Nirwana Bali - 180 yards8. Whistling Straits - 450 yards9. Colleton River (Nicklaus) - 420 yards10. TPC Stadium - 380 yards11. Blackwolf Run River - 570 yards12. Medalist - 165 yards13. High Pointe - 440 yards14. Kiawah Ocean - 195 yards15. The Grand, Australia - 320 yards16. Chung Shan Hot Springs, China - 450 yards17. Skibo Castle - 280 yards18. Kapalua Plantation - 600 yardsCan you do better bound by the same criterion that he was?[Note:  David]

[Lloyd Bickerton]

Ran,To come up with another boneheaded post, you mustn't have had your baby girl yet?At first, I thought no MacKenzie (6 Melbourne), no St. Andrews, etc. what is the point? However, ...... ... courses are being built on spectacular land never before imaginable. I haven't seen most of the holes on either list but you might be in with a chance. A hole from Hope Island should rate though.PS To those who don't know, the name of Ran and Le-Arne's child will be MacKenzie... no kidding, and best yet, Le-Arne came up with the name... not knowing!

[T. Doak]

Wow!  I've seen 14 of the 18 dumb holes you listed.  What do I win?Certainly with all the world to choose from it would be easy to come up with a better eclectic than Ward-Thomas'.  [The 10th at Muirfield Village???]  But I'm not sure if you could do it with all modern courses, because of the lack of artistry in greens detailing, compared with what he had to choose from.An eclectic for the post-1976 era ought to include something from Morrish and Weiskopf [maybe the 9th or 17th at Forest Highlands], and I'm sure there are better sixth holes than The Legends -- even among my own courses! [In fact, the 6th at Stonewall and Apache Stronghold have to duke it out for my personal eclectic 18.]But it is an interesting exercise.  Frankly, I don't agree with many of your choices as truly great holes -- but I don't think there are a lot of holes today which push the envelope enough to be worthy of the title, when you compare them to holes from St. Andrews or Pine Valley or any links.

[Ran Morrissett]

I ended up at the sixth hole as my last pick, needing a tough par four where a strong player would need to hit a long iron in. Thus the 6th at The Legends slotted in (too bad it wasn't the 7th, then I would have been laughing). The problem with the 6th and as with too many holes on my 18 (and modern holes in general) is that there is a forced carry. My course is definitely not a "one ball" course and thus loses points with my own good self. The other thing in particular my course is missing is a good uphill approach shot (ignore 1 at Sand Hills). Think about it. Modern designers eschew uphill holes as much as they can. Where is a modern 2 at Pine Valley or even 10 at Yale?? Still, I know my course would be a lot of fun to play.

[TEPaul]

How would a hole like #2 at Pine Valley be as a par 3 of 160-170 yards routed into the prevailing wind with a skyline backdrop?

[Clark]

First, you're right about some suspicious selections in Golf Atlas.Second, it is a good exercise.  I will put my thinking hat on and offer my list.  Tom Doak: If you apparently disagree so much with Ran's, what would be your 18 holes?  I've never heard of some of the courses Ran mentions, but overall the selection seems pretty good to me.

[Ran Morrissett]

to Tom Doak:How much did you agree with that tape that you helped put together about 5/6 years ago of the world's 18 best holes that started at Machrihanish and finished at Lytham? 50% of it, 70%, 90%...?

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