Is invisibilty invalueable ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

This is a bunker related topic, and while it could extend to other hazards, I'd rather confine the discussion to bunkers, invisible bunkers.

Let's bifurcate the discussion into fairway bunkers and greenside bunkers.

What is the value of an invisible bunker that's in play ?

To the first time player ?

To the repeat player ?

How critical are their placements ?

To the first time player ?

To the repeat player ?

[mike_malone]

 Pat
     I bet you drove your parents crazy with the questions when you were a kid.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I didn't confine it to my parents.

But, even my physicians say that I ask great questions.
Only with them, I pay closer attention to the answers.

[A_Clay_Man]

An interesting aspect of the subject is how the player reacts to finding one of these hiddem gems.

I suppose the Old course is the epitome, and the subsequent dogma that everything needs to visible is the anti-thesis.

Pete Dye is the only one I can think of that utilizes the invisible greenside bunker. Usually smaller pot bunkers, that when I find one, I chuckle and say something like "how cute".

[Brian Phillips]

Adam,

I have nothing against the blind bunkers on TOC as there is enough width on nearly every fairway to avoid them.  I hate blind bunkers when playing on a resort sort of course that you might only be playing that course once.  

I think architects should design a resort golf course with that in mind.  If a person is paying x amount of money to enjoy themself on holiday then they shouldn't have to hit blind bunkers after a good drive should they?

If it is a members course then I have nothing whatsoever against them as a bunker is only blind once, no?

I just played a course in China which is both a members course and a visitors course.  Here is a picture of it:



I was playing together with John Strawn.  He hit his ball out of bounds and I screamed what I thought was fantastic drive drawing down the left.  John congratulated me and the caddy says....no, no...bunker..

I couldn't believe it..

The fairway is only 50 yards wide with out of bounds left and right...where are you supposed to hit it....ah..yes down the middle..a great strtegic hole...not..

If that bunker is supposed to discourage players from going down the left because of the real estate then it should be visible...no?

Now that is when I disagree with blind bunkers..

Brian

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

GCGC has their share of them on hole #'s

1,2,3,4,8,9,10,11,13,14,16,17 and 18.

[TEPaul]

"Pat
    I bet you drove your parents crazy with the questions when you were a kid."

Mayday;

That's true he did drive them crazy with questions when he was a kid but not as crazy as he drove them with questions when he became an adult! Pat and I have speculated how our dads had to have known each other (seems pretty logical with all the top flight golf both played in the same places) but up until now I couldn't recall who Pat's dad was but I think I do now. He was that good golfer who used to wear ear-muffs at all times no matter what the temperature was!

[A_Clay_Man]

Brian- I must confess, resort courses never entered my mind. Save for Blackwolf Run. I'd have to say that your example shows the importance of placement, that Pat asked about originally.  In that specific case, it seems like either bad GCA(too narrow), or a containment of some type.(not mutually exclusive) Unless, the archie ritually punished the ball played towards the blind, it can be anticipated. For me, there usually is some clue, either on the ground or in the archies style, that would cause me to want to find-out, or be wary. These moments of doubt and uncertainty are a large part of the magic. As a matter of fact, one should just know, by the day they are having, if they got "screwed" or not.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian Phillips,

I was looking for good examples, and their impact on play and the golfer.

The ones in your picture would appear to be bad examples, so let's dismiss them for what they are.

[Top100Guru]

Pat;

The Cross Bunker on #2 at Myopia Hunt Club is not visible to the first time golfer and can prove to be a menace if encountered when the greens are rolling 11+.....

[RJ_Daley]

What is the value of an invisible bunker that's in play ?
   The humor that life isn't always fair, and challenge to get out of the situation relatively unscathed or paying the least manageable penalty.

To the first time player ?
     The novelty, and the lesson as above.  After that first time, see below.


To the repeat player ?
     The fun of playing with another first time player and the chance that they may get themselves into the blind hazard and you can enjoy the look on their face.

How critical are their placements ?
      They should exact a penalty, but not spell death.

To the first time player ?
       as above...

To the repeat player ?
       One should not be allowed to play matches for much $$$ if you know where they are and your opponent don't.

Finally, with yardage books, hole graphics on score cards etc., when such bunkers are depicted, how big of a surprise can or should they be?  

I laughed when I got to the back of Doaks #7 at High Pointe to find the pot.  I love to watch first timers expressions that didn't notice the bunker on the hole diagram on the card at Wild Horses #14. Mid LZ hidden bunkers are a hoot if there is wideness in the fairway.  But, as the pic above shows, too narrow and OB to one side makes it not so attractive or novel.

[Patrick_Mucci]

RJ Daley,

You hit upon an excellent point.

A major conflict.

The architect intended that the golfer not discover the hidden hazard prior to the play of the hole, but the publisher of the diagramed yardage book does.

This diminishes the value of the journey the architect had planned for you.

I believe that PV and NGLA both have diagramed yardage books, and I had understood that Friar's Head had one in the works.   Now that you've brought my attention to this conflict I hope the presses stop in Riverhead as it would ruin the journey.

Great point

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I don't see foreknowledge of an unseen hazard diminishing the value of the journey, play the hole once and it never again is unknown to you. That idea might have more truth if you could move them around on a weekly basis. It's not like the architect was placing the unseen hazard as a novelty, he had to be placing it more with regard to its long term value than to any first time bedevilment.    

[cary lichtenstein]

What about a blind green? Lahinch

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cary,

The thread is about hazards, bunkers in particular.

Jim Kennedy,

While playing a course once MAY reveal all of the hidden bunkers, replaying the golf course doesn't pinpoint their location, especially off of the tee.

There is still a degree of discomfort as you continue through your journey.

Schematic yardage books would seem to detract from that journey on golf courses with blind bunkers, especially blind bunkers off the tee.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
By your count GCGC has 13 holes with invisible hazards. How many rounds did it take for you to remember their placements? Your "yardage book" is right between your ears and you recall it chapter and verse every time you step on the tee of the holes you cited. It may even be more complete than a hard copy version, as you probably know where the edges of the hazards are, the distances between them, the widths of the fairway around them, what you can achieve when in them, how best to stay out of them, etc.,etc.,etc..

I think a yardage book only detracts if the journey is one of initial exploration, with results being secondary, and that is what you came for.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Kennedy,

It's not fair to use my "steel trap" mind as an example.

Use a lessor, average mind, for your example, someone like
TEPaul, who's been playing there for 30 years who still gets confused and disoriented, who has a history of driving in the driveway of the house next door to GCGC instead of the club's entrance.

Even today, as I play my second shot on # 13, the general locations of the bunkers are known, but my focus continues to be on the horizon, at the dead tree top.
It remains a very uncomfortable feeling if you're in the midst of a less then stellar ball striking round.
One could walk the 60 or 80 yards forward to see where they are, but slow play and that type of activity are frowned upon at GCGC.

Not knowing their precise location also causes one to exercise caution, to be conservative when pins are in certain locations, or when hitting second shots on par 5's.

Other hidden bunkers have their identity revealed by way of checkered directional flags.  Absent the flags, while you may know the general direction, depending on ground, wind, barometric pressure and your ball striking that day, they remain a bit elusive.

GCGC is unique.

[Joe Hancock]

It's not fair to use my "steel trap" mind as an example.

TEPaul,

There's a joke waiting for ya.....it's ok, take the easy ones when they present themselves!

Joe

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
OK, even if we use TEPaul's mind, which you suggest has a softer spring in it than your steel trap version, I still contend that the example you gave of aiming at the dead tree top is exactly what I am trying to say. You don't need any stinkin' yardage book to tell you where to go and the yardage book isn't going to tell you that the safe route is aiming at the treetop.

Nothing is going to help you on a lousy ball striking day, not even a yardage book.

I agree that a player might be more cautious when they don't know the exact location of hazards, pins, etc., but once you've been around a course several times it follows that you'll learn it. The fact that they can still remain elusive would not be mitigated by the use of a yardage book, in my opinion.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Kennedy,

It reallly depends on each player's powers of observation.

Many are so consumed by their game and the particular challenges during their round that they don't "register" landmarks or sight points for future play.

Some never see the indicators that can help them in the future, just like some golfers never learn course management skills.

With respect to TEPaul, you have to remember that he relies a great deal on his faithful guide dog Coorshaw.   Without him, the man could be lost on a golf course for days.
He has enough trouble finding the clubhouse let alone hidden bunkers.

[Jim_Kennedy]

.....I forgot about the dog.

[TEPaul]

Patrick said;

"....someone like
TEPaul, who's been playing there for 30 years who still gets confused and disoriented, who has a history of driving in the driveway of the house next door to GCGC instead of the club's entrance.

Patrick:

Are you still upset that I saw her and you didn't and I'll always refuse to tell you her name? Now go to bed you silly rabbit before you piss off the adults on this site!

[TEPaul]

"It's not fair to use my "steel trap" mind as an example."

Patrick---your steel trap mind--my ass. The only steel you'll have anywhere near your mind is that Hannibel Lecter mask I'm going to lock on your head!

[Joe Hancock]

TEPaul,

Allow me:

Patrick: "It's not fair to use my "steel trap" mind as an example."

Tom: "His mind is a steel trap, all right. Nothing gets in!"

I couldn't wait all night for you to follow through on this.

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

YES,

I've been looking for her ever since you described your first encounter.