Whistling Straits: US Open worthy?

[Ben DeLow]

In last weeks Golf World, Herb Kohler says of his Whistling Straits: "The USGA has really worked at examining this golf course. Everyone on the executive committee has been out to play it, along with about 15 staff members. They feel they need a midwest anchor. They've got Pebble Beach on the West Coast and Shinnecock on the East Coast." Now, I hate to be cynical, but is it really legitimate to put this course in the league of Shinnecock and Pebble Beach? Didn't we go through this identical hype with Kiawah Island's Ocean Course? And frankly, why does the USGA want to go here so badly? They have plenty of classic venues available, why take such a chance on a new course, with lousy logistics? Can someone please tell why the Executive Committee is devoting so much energy to this? Is it a Herb Kohler fascination, or the blatant regionalization of the Open by David Fay, or just plain ignorance that is driving them to Whistling Straits?Whatever happened to Oakmont???

[DBE]

There is only one decent course in the upper midwest for the US Open to be played:  Oakland Hills.  The USGA was $$ successful at Hazeltine and fortunately for them has lost it to the PGA. Treedinah has also (fortunately for the USGA) gone to the PGA for their Championship and Ryder Cup.  Olympia Fields, unless its rework is unbelievably great will be just ok so.....see how they are looking for the bathroom guy to host an Open for them?  The most interesting thing will be who gets to play an event first--the USGA or PGA.  If the PGA would give Whistling Straits the 2003 Ryder Cup, I bet Kohler would become a PGA man.  Short of that, whichever association awards the earlier date will determine his decision, unless the PGA doesn't give him a Ryder Cup until late next decade with their Championship. I think the Ryder Cup would really be to Kohler's liking, but certainly an Open is better than a PGA Championship.  This is all from someone who has never seen, just heard about the place.  

[Ran Morrissett]

I hope the USGA takes it there. I have only played it once, but the impression it left is  more enjoyable, entertaining, and inspiring than all the US Open sites other than Pebble, Shinnecock, Merion (?!), Winged Foot, and maybe Pinehurst. I would rather play WS than Oakmont for the sheer variety and fun.

[DBE]

I can think of a lot of places I'd rather play than Oakmont.

[DBE]

To Ben Let's review the clubs/courses the USGA plays its Open:EASTPinehurst #2  (a first timer, successful and they will return)Congressional  (unfortunately the only mid atlantic site, will return after 2010)Merion  (nope, unfortunately)Shinnecock Hills  (can you say once every nine years?)Baltusrol  (can you say once every 13 years?)Bethpage Black  (new and they hope will give Shinnecock members some competition on LI)Oakmont  (USGA now desperate for a PA site)Oak Hill  (another PGA club and besides, it ain't that good)Winged Foot  (can you say Ryder Cup and chop down some damn trees?)The CC  (USGA's foot dragging caused another club to go to PGA and Ryder Cup--can you blame them?)MIDWESTOakland Hills  (only decent site in midwest)Hazeltine  (they are now a PGA club)Olympia Fields  (yeah, right)Treedinah #3  (hopefully they'll stay with the PGA and Ryder Cup, USGA and club don't like each other, besides, they need to redo the 17th hole again)SOUTHWEST AND ROCKIESSouthern Hills  (we'll see in 2001 if our earth's temperature has cooled in Tulsa during the third week of June)Cherry Hills  (not again in our lifetimes)WESTPebble Beach  (some would like it here every other year with Shinnecock Hills)Olympic Club  (but only if the 18th green is rebuilt for their hole selector)So you can see, there are not that many places that are considered by the USGA as sites for their Open.  Other wannabees are: East Lake (after all, Rees Jones renovated it), Atlanta Athletic Club (ditto), RTJ International (well, Jones is part of the club's name), Castle Pines (just think, an Open played using the club founder's scoring system), Inverness (being test driven at an upcoming Senior Open, hopefully the other course designed for the 1979 Open and 1986 PGA on the front nine by can be corrected), Pumpkin Ridge (maybe a 25th anniversary of Tiger's Amateur win?), Riviera (what the owners would give to get the "big sushi"), Colonial (yep, the MasterCard US Open, padnaw), Champions (at least there would be some great Jack Burke stories to tell),Cog Hill (Chicago's overrated Advil Western Open site) and Whistling Straits.  The USGA needs not only additional places in the midwest, but everywhere except the east.  They don't want to lose another site (albeit potential) to their allies, the PGA.The only place the USGA would like to play is LACC.  Maybe its newest member will begin the groundswell during the Ryder Cup from his couch.  

[Clark]

I think I see David's point -- it's a geography issue. I'm sure Whistlng Straits is better than other dull sites in the mid-west such as Treedinah (I like that name!), Olypmia Fields, Hazletine, etc.  What I saw of WS on the Golf Channel this summer did look very good.  In other words, WS might get the Open because of its location, and we should not interpret that as the USGA saying it is a better course than Winged Foot, Oakmont, etc.Hell, if the Open can go to Champions, it can certainly go to Whistling Straits at least once.

[Ben DeLow]

I respect your opinion, but I am not clear why the Open needs to be regionalized? I live in the west and am a member at one of the courses mentioned, but it seems to me that the national championship should be played on the best possible courses, regardless of region. The event will be well attended no matter where it is held. Right?On the other hand, I don't understand why the USGA is going to so much trouble anymore to even consider architecture if they are just going to bastardize the courses and disregard the architecture. I know there is a Freudian type issue there with preventing certain scores and setting courses up ridiculously so as to not reveal what we all know about the equipment and the skill of today's players. If we did have a reasonable set up, and a 11 under winning score, the spotlight would get turned on David Fay and Frank Thomas for denying their was an equipment problem the last ten years (and the world would still turn I think, contrary to many opinions). And apparently Fay has decided he likes to look at his $150 million portfolio everyday instead of fighting the ball companies and saving the game. They should just go to places where Meeks can do screwy fairway contours and grow tall rough and they can fill it with corporate tents and make $15 million per Open. Architecture is meaningless thanks to the equipment and ball and their fear of good scores.  God forbid a golfer should be so good as to make birdies on those well designed holes.

[Lisa Luigs Morrissett]

I would love for David Eger to play Whistling Straits to get his opinion from a player's (not administrative) perspective.Administratively, yes, Whistling Straits can handle the Open. If there was anything that was lacking, Mr. Kohler would do what Pinehurst did - fix it and make it the best no matter what the cost.As far as hotel rooms are concerned, there are more rooms between Green Bay and Milwaukee that there are for Shinnecock.Parking isn't a problem with the zillions of acres of farmland around the course.I would say the only minus is that there isn't much room internally for spectators as you might think (although plenty of room externally for the dreaded hospitality tents, media center, etc.).I think the 1998 Women's Open was such a success because of all the resources of the Kohler Co. and Mr. kohler's will/desire to have nothing less that the best (as witnessed in his first profession). If you can sell out women's golf in the middle of Wisconsin, you must be doing something right. . . But the bottom line is yes, it is a great golf course and certainly better than most anything else the midwest has to offer.

[JohnV]

As a member at another of the Western courses mentioned by David, I would say that the US Open is the United States Open, not the NorthEast Open.  As such, I think it should move around the country to the most qualified courses in the regions.  There are plenty of courses that are of the quality to have an Open at least once.  I agree that they should go to the Shinnecock's and Pebble Beach's frequently, but they should also visit the other areas occasionally.What about Bandon?  I've heard that a number of USGA folks have visited it so far and I know they would take any tournament offered.  Talk about remote.  Whistling Straights looks like it is right next Wrigley Field compared to Bandon.

[DBE]

The USGA needs to find places to play their Open that can accomodate all the corporate tents, gallery (this number has risen to 50,000 plus because of the corporate tents),parking for 20,000 cars, television's compound, etc. The site needs to be fairly accessable to major roads, airports and hotels.  They do recognize that they play a lot of Opens in the NE and try to go to the midwest and west frequently.  Pinehurst gives them another site (a southern one at that) and if Southern Hills works out (most are highly skeptical because of the assurances of 100 degree temperatures) then that's two more to spread the Open around places.  They have lost Hazeltine for awhile and nothing is a given at Olympia Fields (a perfect Senior Open site except for the hole placement on #18 on Friday---again!!).  I know that the USGA thought Kohler did a fine job at Black Wolf for the 1998 Women's Open. Who knows, Pete Dye wants to see an Open played on Crooked Stick before he's gone...it won't be there but perhaps it will be Whistling Straits!

[Ben DeLow]

But with $150 million in the bank, do they really need to have huge corporate tent space, large galleries and regional distribution every year? Lodging and airport accessibility I understand and that is a sound policy. But they make sacrifices to go to Shinnecock and Pebble Beach, and it seems they just don't need to milk the Open dry every year and compromise the tournament by going to modern courses that have question marks and are unproven (yes, I'm referring to Whistling Straits and Pumpkin Ridge).

[DBE]

Ben, they are used to making millions from the Open.  Taking it somewhere like Merion that restricts the number of corporate tents, spectators, grandstands, etc. reduces their income.  After the merchandise tent (by the way, at Pinehurst the rumor is that CCA grossed $12 M selling logoed stuff) takes up its space near the club, there isn't much room for the other tents.....don't forget the press tent either.

[Tom Naccarato]

David,First off, I'm not a member of any of the club's mentioned.Second, I stand behind Ben 100% when we talk of regionalization of the national Open.  Isn't the USGA non-profit? If it is, it doens't make sense for a "non-profit" organization to make money every year off of a tournament while hard working tax-payers have to pay their taxes with little respite.  If it isn't, I still have to say that the sanctitiy of the game is being tarnished by these "luxuory boxes" for the rich and famous.  If they don't want to walk around the course and see the best in the game play championship golf, then simply stay home and watch it on tv.Third, you speak of the USGA being desperate for a PA site, well, we have to stand pat and except no substitute,(and repeat after me) M E R I O N ! This is the place, limit the tickets and then charge more for them to offset the cost of lost crowds. Trust me, they will come!  And hopefully someone deserving the grand glory of winning our national Championship will be the victor.Four- while I may be over the top, it is other guys in similar posisitons like you that have to get past all of this political correctness and get this great game back on track. Do you in all sound mind and body think that RTJ International is worthy of US Open greatness? (Please tell me you are taking into consideration how RTJ has ruined some of the great courses in the game.)Or even worse, wanting to take the Open to a upper-scale nightmare because the region needs it and it is the only suitable course to host such an event, just ask the owner/plumber, he'll tell you! As I have said over in Tradtional Golf.com, I think he needs to stick his head under one of his faucets to reduce the swelling and W A K E   U P!!!!!!!Go ahead, let him make a deal with the most insignifcant major of them all.Guys, I feel all of us writing expressing our opinions brings all of this out into the forefront.  Announcing Open or PGA sites for the next twenty years is not good for the game, it is a quick sell, and it makes CEO's look like they have done something for the game, no matter how lousy the venues are (See Vahalla for a better explaination.)  I don't think the USGA should ever follow the USGA's suit and announce anything for more then 5 years in advance, that should be plentyof time to get it together to hold an open and also pick a course that doesn't have to rely on Rees Jones to bring it back from the dead. (See Congressional and Hazelnuts)which of course he doesn't other then some minor conditioning changes and ultra-ridiculous bunker renovations.And finally, all's it takes is one Great Depression to bring us back to our senses.  The times we are enjoying now are very similar to those days, let's hope it continues, wisely.

[Tom Naccarato]

Correction-For some reason I meant to say, the times we are enjoying now are similar to before the Great Depression.

[Ran Morrissett]

When I worked at the USGA in the mid-1980s, it was in a precarious financial situation. The Ping lawsuit could have been absolutely disasterous. As Tom and Ben point out, things are totally different now and the USGA doesn't have to milk the US Open for every penny - far from it. They certainly can, as David points out, but they don't have to.Golf would benefit more by the USGA forgoing putting extra millions into their flush bank account and holding reduced size Opens on a periodic basis, similar to Shinnecock. Merion is the prime example and after having played Whistling, I can safely say I hope it goes there in the next decade as well.When they take it to places like Olmypia Fields, it is the third most interesting Major and probably about the 10th most interesting golf telecast that year. If they take it to exciting, stimulating designs (be them new or old), the USGA is providing the game a great service. In a 20 year span, they have added Pinehurst, Bethpage and Shinnecock to the "rota." I hope they add another three of equal merit in the next 20 years as well.

[Tom_Egan]

Re: Post by Tom Naccarato of 9/4.     Tom, I agree with most every point you make in this and other postings you've made.  Especially on going back to Merion for the U.S. Open.     However, there's one thing you said that I just can't let pass by.  What does this mean?  ". . . hopefully someone deserving of the grand glory of winning our national championship will be the victor."     Have we had an "unworthy" champion?  Has anyone ever won who has not shot the lowest score?  On what basis have Bobby Jones or Jack Nicklaus been more deserving that Tony Manero or Lou Graham?  Should a list be made which distinguishes deserving champions from those less deserving?       I don't mean this to be a cheap shot but, in the interest of those less well known winners who invested great energy, skill and courage at the moments that counted most, I believe we should honor them, rather than belittle them just because the best and most consistant players of the moment couldn't match their stuff.     Count me on the side of those who would rather have seen Mike Donald win his first Open than Hale Irwin win his third.

[Steve Jones]

You are right Tom - no unworthy champions ever! And while we are on the subject, I'd just like to thank the Lord one more time for creating Robert Trent Jones and the USGA par-5 to par-4 mentality. That sure helped me put Tom Lehman away. Thanks Lord, I couldn't have done it without you!

[Tom Naccarato]

David,Ironically, I couldn't have rooted for anyone more then Mike Donald that year.  His speech after his defeat still echos in my ears, his dedication to the game, how it means so much to him in his life, etc.  This is the type of champion I write of, but in a realistic world, we have the megalomaniac "Hal" Irwin. (Is it me, or is there anyone out there more boring of a golfer?)(Please pay no attention to my personal opinion as I think very little of MOST professional golfers, especially ones who think they are golf course architects and can barely draw stick figures let alone get in a pair of work boots to survey a site.)But the main point of my opinion is the setups of these US Open courses.  Pain and punishment is not a great way to settle a championship in my terms, it takes away from the dramatics of a thrilling finish that was taken from us similarily this year at Augusta by Fazio/ANGC/Whomever deciding that not only rough was neccessary to contain golf scores, so were the addition of countless numbers of trees that have taken the excitement out of this tournament.  The truth is, I disdain Augusta for this reason, even more because it is no longer the work of two of golfs most intriguing personalities-Bobby Jones and Alister MacKenzie.  RTJ had to influence his course with a heck of a sell job to Clifford Roberts in the 40's, Jack Nicklaus/Boob Cupp wanting to tinker with it even more in the 80's and now Tom Fizzio.  (once again is it me or am I the only one that just think this course has become a quilt? I see past the conditioning and look at the design and I don't get it, as I feel the Good Doctor would think the same.)(Sorry, I'm rambling!)Anyway, back to the point which is set up.  What is wrong with players having intense drama of having to make a birdie then having to save par?  I think if it is mixed up a little every other year or something you have a great champion, the best at the moment, not a survivor or last man standing.Once again, this is my humble opinion. (Ok, maybe a little pompus!)  

[Tom_Egan]

To Steve Jones     Mixed emotions about your U.S. Open win at Oakland Hills.  Granted, you demonstrated great skill and fortitude all during the tournament, especially the pressure packed head-to-head last round.  You shot the lowest score of the week on a golf course that is pretty damn good.  Granted, not perfect, but pretty damn good.       However, were you a more deserving champion than Tom Lehman would have been?  After all, you have won only eight tour events while Tom has won the grand total of four!  Don't be too pretentious.     Your great shame comes in the temerity you showed in scoring lower than such stalwarts as Couples, Love, Montgomerie, Norman, et.al., who forgot to bring their games with them that week.  Should you be blamed for this?  Disrespected?  Mocked?  Maybe.     Above all, although you were able to stumble through in front on an infamous dog track like Oakland Hills, you could never have won on a Pebble Beach, a Shinnecock, a Merion, or whatever the "Raynor de jour" happened to be at the time.  I hope the money you won was freely given; respect must be a tougher prize to earn.    

[DBE]

I'm glad we're on to set up of the course again.  To me, who gives a damn how many over or under the winning score is?  Years ago, the Masters made it easier to know the status of a player by keeping his score in relation to par but they've also caused problems with players, fans, media and especially administrators.  In the final analysis, why would anyone give a damn what "par" on any hole was? The lowest 72 hole score always wins a major championship.  Hell, why doesn't some handicap team from the USGA rate the Open course the day before play begins.  I bet the winning score would be lower than 4 x the course rating!

[JohnV]

David, I couldn't agree more.  Perhaps I will do that for the US Open next year.  I'll be there and I could bring my rating book.  Might be interesting to see what the number comes out to.  NBC kept saying that the Slope at the Pebble for the US Amateur was 155, but that is meaningless for golfers of the caliber playing in either the Am or the Open.  Course rating is what matters.  

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Bump...

I love these old threads with the benefit of hindsight now.  WS certainly showed its merit holding a major, though it ended up a PGA site.

Interesting posts by Eger and Ran in particular.  Ran was dead on about the reception for the Open at Olympia Fields (yawn), the Open potentially downsizing to go back to Shinnecock & Merion.

In a 20 year span, they have added Pinehurst, Bethpage and Shinnecock to the "rota." I hope they add another three of equal merit in the next 20 years as well.

Do we have a consensus on what those 3 courses should be?

[Kalen Braley]

Well has Torrey Pines been officially added to the "rota" or is that just on an experimental basis?  I've never played it, but I would think the USGA could step up from that.

Is there any way we can get an extra 400-500 yards at Pac Dunes, then cut back the gorse a bit for the galleries and then give it a go?  Who wouldn't want to watch Tiger play 13 into a 25 MPH wind from the top of that big dune on the right side of the hole?

They could do like they did the last time it was held at Olympic in San Fran when they used Harding as the "parking lot".  Bandons got a few wide open fairways to house some tents and what not and you can't beat the practice facility at Bandon??  

[Phil McDade]

The first obvious one might be Prairie Dunes, although Roberts' 62 probably doesn't inspire much confidence in New Jersey about resistance to scoring.

The second, and I have no idea about how it should play in terms of length, would be Pine Valley. Spectators would be far below even the low levels anticipated for Merion, however, from what I've heard. Unlikely, but still, it should be in the debate, if the argument is the best golfers in the world should be tested on the best course.

Third and fourth -- and this is an intellectual exercise probably on par with Pine Valley -- would be Sand Hills and/or Ballyneal. For those who have played and are familiar, would either/both hold up in mid-June conditions at the proper length for the US Open? No logistics discussions; just the merits of the course under an Open set-up in typical June weather.

[Jim Sweeney]

Phil:

I don't know how you can talk about Open sites without taking logistics and market into account.

The geographic basis of the discussion is is the Chicago market and an extended area including southern Wisconsin, and northern Illinois.

So I think that gives us, as three interesting possibilities:

Whistling Straights- I wouldn't drop it yet just because the PGA was played there- many US OPen sites have also hosted PGAs;

Erin Hills- there seems to a lot of interest today, but it has just opened and time will tell if it is truly worthy;

Cog Hill Dubsdread- if the Rees Jones re-do is successful. I think this may the best option if the re-do works; it has the location, the population, the space, basically everything needed.