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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Name that Course - No. 4
« on: August 13, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
The clues are:1. It is the 7th oldest club in the USA.2. It has hosted several of the USGA's premier championships.3. It was designed by one of the great architects. He practised his hand in the Phillie area for a while.4. It is being presently restored to more of its orginal character by a design firm that has had great success in restoring old classics.5. A famous golf term was invented at this Club.Good luck.

John Morrissett

Name that Course - No. 4
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Are family members allowed to participate?  If so, the answer is Atlantic City CC -- a good William Flynn course that I understand Tom Doak has essentially torn up.  The project should have great potential.  The unfortunate part is that it seems destined to become a cheaper Shaodow Creek of the east (i.e., we might never get to play it).

David Staebler

Name that Course - No. 4
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
RIP.  Atlantic City CC, routed around an essentially flat piece of ground hard against the salt march between the mainland and the barrier island, had a collection of great push up green complexes that made you sure the terrain had more undulations than were really there.  It was an old fashioned hard and fast track.  In recent years they had installed a fairway watering system but I don't think they used it very much. The high marker could bat it along and not lose golf balls while the scratch player was always presented with a strategic challenge and paid for his bad decisions and poor execution.  I can't think of another course with two fabulous wedge shot par threes.When I heard at the beginning of this golf season ACC property had been bulldozed by the big casino that bought it a few year ago to build a better course for their high rollers I was heart broken.  I have great respect for Tom Doak but according to my sources he is the third architect to work on the job so far.  They started with fine aged prime rib.  I'm afraid the best they will end up with is expensive sausage.

rkg

Name that Course - No. 4
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
There were other architects considered for the accc "remodel" but Tom Doak is the only one selected and to have his hands on it.  That is unless you count the golf pro and the greens keeper, who often, along with the contractor felt they were more integral and knowlegeable as to how the golf course should be re-worked than Tom and his staff.It definately has not been restored, although greens on holes 3,8,9,11,are essentially the same and the Flyyn subtleness was saved.  The greens were determined to need usga specs, although the soil was probably about as perfect as one could have wished for push up greens.  This decision was not made by Renaissance, and I so not know why push ups were not used other than it was a big budget, and it probably did not seem "modern" to those involved in the agronomic decisions to take advantage of great soils for the greens.  The soil that was taken out of the greens  was absolutely marvolous, and many  would love to this day to have greens made of it. But why use native soil when you can truck it in, and then maintain your greens like most everyone else you talk to at the next gcsaa meeting.  I should stop, I am begining to vent.As for the golf course, Tom and all his associatates have worked hard to give the owners what they want, while making the course better.  Many will bemoan the loss of a Flynn masterpiece, but the course had been bastardized over the years and some of the new stuff would have fit in perfectly on any vintage 1980's Florida retiremant course.  Many trees, planted ove3r the years, were removed giving the course a more open feel and providing views across the marsh from many areas of the course.Tom worked hard to give the greens an interesting flavor and I think those that drop enough loot in the Casino will enjoy them.  Check out 2,6,7,12 for subtle (heck they are flat compared to Lost Dunes and  intesting workAs for the bunkers, the original bunkers had been largely grassed over.  they were immense, shallow (2 to 4 feet deep) flat- bottom bunkers.  Tom attempted to give the bunkers a more dramatic flair, while paying homage to Mr. Flynn.  The bunkering was somewhat compromised in my opinion by a desire to have an Augusta/Shadow creek look, and an opportunity to have a more rugged edge bunker with a more coastal feel was lost when those "above" Tom decided what a Flynn bunker looked like.The bunkers are still very cool in places (I built many of them, with obvious input from all the talent at Rennaisance, while shaping this course for five months. Which is where my "knowledge" comes from)Tom made some neat modifications to the routing on the back nine which bring the marsh into play, and an old, long abandoned tee has been reincorported to the new 14th to take the player far out into the marsh.  It will  be interesting to see how this project is classified, as a remodel, or as a new course, but either way it IS better than it was (although the 600 members who were booted from there longtime club when it was sold, may disagree)and if it were not for Tom Doak and everyone at Renaissance I shudder to imgine what could have happened.

John Morrissett

Name that Course - No. 4
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Thanks for the report.  Fewer trees and more holes along the marsh -- I have high hopes.Unfortunately, it sounds as though the old, cute short 4th will be a casualty (my favorite hole).  (However, I can hear superintendents howling at the size of that green.)Will the guest policy be what we fear -- for only the AC high-rollers?Do you think Tom will view this as a Renaissance design or as a re-do (or whatever he would call since it doesn't sound as though "restoration" would be appropriate)?

rkg

Name that Course - No. 4
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
The short 4th still exists.  Tom redid the green (there is now only one) and took out the mass of bunkers.  the hole is still short and still difficult.  The best effect is the removal of  tall, invasive phragmites (sp?)from the marsh.  The view from the green is now unimpeded across the marsh to Margate and AC. A missed shot to the right may end up washing ashore in these towns, heck, if there is a wicked storm, the green itself may end up there .  Jim Urbina built the green and Bruce Hepner and I tweaked the bunkers.  Tom created a sort of tidal- eroded-  natural sand -creek (not sure what to call it)between the green and tee which could be cool if it is finished well.  Have not been there in quite a while(June) to know how it looks.The green itself is still small, although not as small as it was.  It is a rather simple green, with less bunkers, but a more interesting variety of chipping with the fifth tees blending into the chipping and bunker areas behind the green. When the wind blows it can be a bear just to get near it from the elevated tee so have fun.I think Tom will view it mainly as a Rennaisance (with some outside input) design with some remaining Flynn greens and basic routing.  Definatly not a "restoration"  Although I say this, one thing I learned with Tom is to not try to guess what Tom thinks, he definately does not want to be predictable. So you would be beter asking him personally.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Name that Course - No. 4
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Actually, they are planting the last three holes at the "new" ACCC as I write this.The revised course is certainly not a restoration -- any more than East Lake -- but I'm not sure I feel right claiming it as my design either.  We did keep quite a few of the best features of the old course, but the client dictated several changes.  The last five holes are the only ones where I made some really creative changes, and the Hilton brass loves them -- making us all want to ask why they didn't let us loose from the start, instead of the pro whispering about Flynn every time we started to do something exciting.It was a thankless job to take because I know a lot of people around Philadelphia loved the old course, and some will undoubtedly think I screwed it up, even if they never see it.  But, we did pretty well considering, and it's paid the bills while we wait for Scotland and Bandon and Australia to start up.Besides, the truth is that the appeal of the old course (c. 1997) was more ambience than a great design.  The holes along the marsh were the weakest of all -- downwind, nondescript, medium-length par-4's.

John Sessions

Name that Course - No. 4
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
I am surprised by all the renovation/restoration work that Tom Doak's firm does. They seem to pop up everywhere - Calif., Ohio, SC, NY, NJ, and always on  neat courses.