[Mike_Cirba]

Hell, that's it!  I need to settle this once and for all!

I'm heading to Michigan next month...just booked tickets to Traverse City today.  

It sounds like our little group can't go wrong playing Kingsley Club, High Pointe, and Crystal Downs?  

How close are Tullymore, Lost Dunes, Lochenheath, and Arcadia Bluffs while we're at it?  

Any other recommendations of "must see" courses?

[Joe Hancock]

Lochenheath is 10 minutes from High Pointe.

Tullymore is 1.5 hours from Traverse City.

Arcadia is 15 minutes from Crystal Downs.

Lost Dunes is 3 hours from everything.

Joe

[Mike_Cirba]

Thanks, Joe!

Have you played all of them?  

Any favorites?  I'm curious about each of them, as well as Rees Jones's Black Lake.  

[Joe Hancock]

Mike,

I only have High Pointe, Crystal Downs and Kingsley under my belt. I am playing Tullymore on May 13th.

Lost Dunes is a little over an hour from me,and I'm anxious to play there. Arcadia is high on my priority list as well, but I hear rumors of 5-6 hour rounds...ugh! Lochenheath is another place I want to see, after playing Southern Dunes last winter with Smyers.

Hope you have sunny skies and warm temps!

joe

[Holyhead_ferry_1]

Hi guys!
I'd love an opinion, Last thursday I was asked by a good friend of mine to go to a golf course and walk around with an architect.
Being British and one myself and the architect in question here was a well known American, I felt it was a good thing to do, and would broaden my veiw on how you colonials view golf architecture of the 20's and 30's.
The course is in the north east and I'll be kind and leave it at that!
The gentleman in question here started off with a statement that astounded every member there, that the course was designed by another architect who was a spritly young boy at the time of the original course construction.
He then proceeded to give a lecture on the style of golf course layout and architecture that not only astounded me but raised a few eyebrows with the commitee.
One gentleman remarked "whats he smoking!" My point here is that it is amazing that people in my honourable profession think they can get away with murder, so many have. Unfortunately as in this isolated case,  the clients,the golf committees pay for it somewhere down the road.
Ego is a wonderfull thing, especially when your a legend in your own mind.
By the way I understand the architect was fired monday.
Comments please gents on the back of a fag packet please
(cigarette packet to none Brits).
Regards
Ian

[Jim Thompson]

Joe,

The rumors of 5 - 6 hour rounds at Arcadia are a reality.  I've played a dozen times and only broke 5:45 once.  That said, I had something to do every second of each round.  I figure there's a good hour just for cart ride to and from greens and tees.  There's a good half hour in trying to figure out "just what is out there" and is that a bunker or just a tuft of grass.  There's also another fifteen minutes worth of trying to figure out how to get your pill to stop near the hole.  You could probably cut that time in half if you take a slide rule.  Throw in a half hour of bunker raking and three putting and that 6-hour round is really a 3:45 round of golf.

If you like to throw darts at the pin, you'll have a long day.  That ball you'd swear hit two feet from the hole is now a 30 - 45 ft putt.  You must calculate where to land the ball on those concrete greens to get it to stop in the vicinity of the hole.  A good ground came and a full array of knock down shots from 175 and in will serve you well.  You'll know what I mean after you three putt three of the first four holes.  Avoid the rough at all costs up there also.  They tracked in the rough with a D6 and if you do find your ball in among the tall grass, it will be in a cleat mark that you can't hit out of without a rutter.  But...

Its definitely worth the trip!

Enjoy!

JT

[Mike_DeVries]

Well, I am not going to jump into the fray of the hole-by-hole but I will comment on High Pointe.

I REALLY like the golf course a lot.  Maybe it is because it is where I first met Tom and starting working with him (although very briefly at HP, as Tom stated) and that was the beginning of my formal development as a golf course architect.  HP was a gas to play when it first opened, as the fescue was firm and hard and the greens were rolling slow enough to make them really fun.  Unfortunately, most players didn't know what to make of the conditions, because it was different.  So, being Americans, they rejected the concept and the spiral began.

Back to what I like about the course -- it has great variety in the look and play of shots throughout the golf course.  Some people have said it has a dual personality due to the open front and wooded back, going so far as to say Tom copied Crystal Downs for that (by the way, the same has been said about Kingsley) and that leads some players to prefer one nine over the other.  I think there are aspects of these courses that benefit from the difference, but I also don't think the nines are that drastically different in playability, shot values, or whatever you want to discuss.  I don't hear people saying Cypress Point is at fault for having holes in trees, dunes, and headlands -- it is a great mix of holes and the flow of the course is phenomenal.  Ditto for Crystal Downs.

Tom, the greens at HP are excellent, but I prefer your greens at Pacific Dunes -- they really seem to flow out of the landscape and HP's are more abrupt in some places, so I give the edge to Pacific there.

Finally, I seem to play very well at HP, although it has been a few years since I have been there.  Maybe my familiarity with the course gives me an edge over other players in this respect and I enjoy it more because of that -- but I still really like the course 15 years later and that says something about a place.

Mike Cirba, you have seemingly volunteered to answer all the questions regarding this discussion -- maybe we should get a group up here to make for a great round table of discussion?

[RNyblad]

I haven't played High Pointe yet, but I'll take care of that this summer. I have played Lochenheath and I really enjoyed it. The greens there are intense with some real severe false fronts. It was a great test.

[Doug Wright]

I really enjoyed High Pointe. Very good variety of holes, with some excellent ones. Highlights--I liked the 3rd and 5th holes, thought the Redan 4th was good not great, the 7th and 8th greens are terrific, and the 9th is a solid 3 shotter esp into the wind with threatening cross bunkers. On the back, the uphill 10th tells you you're not on the prairie anymore and is a good introduction to the treelined back side. I liked the table top par 3 11th--pretty tough with the wind blowing... The 13th green is unique. I couldn't figure it out, and I think it would take a whole lot of playing/watching to do so. I also thought the green at 16 and the par 3 17th were very good. Then there's the 18th--alas   Solid, in the middle of the Doak scale for me.

All The Best,  

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