[Jeff Fortson]

JakaB,

It took a win from arguably the most popular tragic hero in all of golf to make the tournament a success.  If Luke Donald or Chris Riley had won, you'd be eating crow.  I thought John Daly winning was good for golf, I think Torrey Pines as a future U.S. Open venue is an extremely poor choice.


Jeff F.

[JakaB]

Jeff,

When was the last time you saw Tiger scare the leaders and choke it home...Tiger made a run..Phil made a run...take Daly out of the picture and you have two young Correy Pavins stealing the tourney.   Sorry it hurts you to see fat guys with bad hair cuts get a break...but tonight I sit proudly at the head of the class.

[JakaB]

I talked to at least thirty people this weekend who are thrilled the Open is being held at an affordable easy to access course...you rich connected shits piss me off...

[Jeff Fortson]

JakaB,

Torrey Pines accessable?  Yes.  Easily accessable?  Not remotely.  Ever tried to get a weekend morning tee time?  Have fun getting there at midnight the day before.

If you are implying I am rich or connected than you have less brain cells then you are appearing to have.  I would venture to say that I make less money than anyone that contributes to this website.  So take your holier than thou, populist rhetoric to the first tee of the private golf club that you are a member of, and pipe one down the middle 220 yards in the name of the poor working man.

Rich people complaining about other rich people are what piss me off.


Jeff F.

[DMoriarty]

Barney,

I play 99% of my golf on public golf courses and always have.  I too like to see USGA events held at "affordable easy to access courses" (although unless you live in SD the course is neither affordable nor easy to access.)  

But, having played the course before and after Rees' changes, I just cant get excited about Torrey being chosen for a US Open venue.   While the course has pleasant Ocean views and might produce an exciting tournament, in my opinion there just isnt much compelling about the golf course.  

Granted, the tournament committee can be set up TP South as tough as they want.  If they figure out how to get the rough to grow, they could probably put the winning score into  + double digits.   (Kikuyu isnt much fun at US Open rough heights.)  And with brute length and narrow fairways, they can force long irons into some of the holes.   So if this is all you are looking for in a US Open, then it is certainly the course for you.  

The problem, in my opinion, is that all Torrey offers is long holes with narrow fairways.   It is interchangeable with any other course that can be stretched to 7600+ yards and where rough can be grown.  And it is one dimensional to the nth degree.  Surely the test of good architecture comes down to more than just length and the ability to grow rough.  

I am not sure why, but I guess I just expect more of the USGA.  After all, this is our national championship.   It just seems like our national championship ought to be reserved for our best courses, not just the ones that can be made really hard.  

I can highly recommend the Lodge though, if you are on an expense account.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

JakassaB,
See, this is how much your in the know about San Diego.

I talked to three hundred, and they tell me their pissed the course is going to be closed that week in 2008.

90% of the people are either currently surfers or were surfers in a previous lifestyle. Surfers are territorial, so simply put, My Beach, My Waves probably doesn't mean something to a mid-western hick like yourself. Consider those who play at Torrey Pines every weekend, about the same.

So my suggestion to you is to either stay home or take up surfing, where you can then show-up at Torrey Pines in 2008 with a surf board, long hair, a bag of sensimilla and a pipe in hand, cursing out the Century Club and the USGA for making access to Black's Beach impossible that week, especially since the waves at Black's that time of year are pretty rad. (6-8' with a Southwesterly swell, and the wind is usually blowing offshore. You see, most of North County is a summer break, and the waves wall-off, creating the kind of tubes that surfers like. But then again, you probably already knew that!)

Hang Loose and Easy Brau!

[Jeff Fortson]

JakaB,

Another thing.....

The only thing Torrey Pines hosting the U.S. Open will do for the local San Diego golfer that plays there frequently will be an increase in greens fees, more difficulty getting a tee time, longer rounds, and losing their course for at least 3 weeks that summer.  Oh yeah and a bunch of tourists like you from the midwest who want to go to Sea World and then take advantage of the desperate population of Tijuana by buying their goods for pennies.

That pretty much goes against your plight for the "common man".  I didn't realize common men were members at multiple golf clubs, but I guess you learn something new everyday.  Stop acting like such a sheep when you run with the wolfpack.


Jeff F.

[George Pazin]

I was really kind of hoping the other TP threads would put this one to bed....

JakaB -

You completely missed the point of this thread as I originally intended, which is not surprising considering what developed.

The genesis of the thread was as follows. I had a slow Thursday afternoon, as we completed a rather large print job for us Thursday morning and my guys were breaking everything down. This gave me the opportunity to catch a good bit of Thursday's action. I observed quite a few putts hit from various lengths of, say, 5-25 feet, that appeared to track straight at the hole and either go in, lip out or go straight by the hole. This seemed like something I would find boring if I were playing the course, so I decided to start a thread where I could solicit opinions on the greens of TP. I choose the admittedly poor choice of the thread title (poor because it inspired emotion rather than thought) because it was the most concise way of conveying my observation and I thought it would be sure to draw out some interesting opinions from people who have played the course. I did not take the time to adequately reflect on how this would draw out Pat in a Rees defense mode. Indeed, prior to starting the thread, I was under the mistaken impression that Rees had simply stretched the course a bit and moved a few bunkers and greens. I specifically included the Rees compliment so that people would focus on the greens, which I mistakely assumed had not been modified by Rees.

What ensued was two things: 1) a handful of people took my request as genuine (thanks guys) and responded in the affirmative or negative and 2) a brawl between Pat and myself ensued when I was not able to overlook his comments. I am not proud of what ensued between Pat and me, but I felt like I was being smeared and wanted to try to get the thread back onto my original question. Big mistake, I should have just let it go. In the future I will do my best to ignore it when people try to attack me personally rather than attack my points (which a few did & I thought I took rather well), but I can't guarantee that I won't rise up to defend myself again.

You are right, the tournament was pretty entertaining. I did observe a few putts that broke pretty good amounts, so I guess in a sense my original question still remains unanswered, to me at least.

I still stand by my original question and my own personal preferences - I find it more interesting trying to judge a few feet of break than a few inches, and I also believe this forces one to think more when playing a course. Big John's bunker blast was great and all three players should be congratulated, particularly Riley and Donald for their clutch putts that forced the playoff. But none of that really has much to do with my original question, does it?

[JakaB]

The problem, in my opinion, is that all Torrey offers is long holes with narrow fairways.   It is interchangeable with any other course that can be stretched to 7600+ yards and where rough can be grown.  And it is one dimensional to the nth degree.  Surely the test of good architecture comes down to more than just length and the ability to grow rough.  

 

Dave,

The only option I that see your love of width gives the possible champion of a US Open is the option to hit a bad drive....Shinnecock may be the best championship course in the land...where is your beloved width there my friend...US Open speaking of course.   I didn't get to watch the tournament today...but how about the 12th quashing the Tiger charge....would have more width on that hole given you a more deserving champion....I think the United States of America deserves a champion that can hit a long straight driver...it defines our great country.

[DMoriarty]

Barney,

Ive seen and played Torrey when it was cut quite a bit wider, with very little rough, and it still isnt an interesting golf course.  There is just no reason to do anything but to try to hit it as hard as you can.  Brainless golf.  Yes, the driver has always been the end-all-be-all of golf, so it is a terrific way to pick our champion.  I can see the merger with the Long Drive guys coming any day now . . .

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dave,

The only option I that see your love of width gives the possible champion of a US Open is the option to hit a bad drive....Shinnecock may be the best championship course in the land...where is your beloved width there my friend...US Open speaking of course.   I didn't get to watch the tournament today...but how about the 12th quashing the Tiger charge....would have more width on that hole given you a more deserving champion....I think the United States of America deserves a champion that can hit a long straight driver...it defines our great country.

Jakassab,
You don't understand anything about strategy and width do you? Plus, your confusing US Open golf with a public 36 hole facility.

The issue with width is that you can have it, only the more width you use the more difficult the next shot presents itself, and then you have a green that is contoured in conjunction with it.

Its all very simple. You just have to pick-up a book and read it once in a while. One of them is called Golf Architecture in America, and Mike Hendren will tell you how interesting it really is.

Go ahead, I'm waiting for the smart ass retort to my smart ass retort. Its all groovy!

[JakaB]

There is just no reason to do anything but to try to hit it as hard as you can.  Brainless golf.
 

Hitting every tee shot is as hard as you can is not brainless golf even at a level that only breaks 80....It takes a great course manager to anticipate his misses and aim accordingly...At the pro level it takes a genius to hit it as hard as he can and still make a living....Do you really believe Seve didn't have a clue where his drives were going and just got lucky all those times he had an open route to recovery.....I know you far to well to think you subscribe to the notion that a more athletic being is thus less intelegent...sounds like the basis of a stereotype.

[DMoriarty]

Hitting every tee shot is as hard as you can is not brainless golf even at a level that only breaks 80....It takes a great course manager to anticipate his misses and aim accordingly...At the pro level it takes a genius to hit it as hard as he can and still make a living....Do you really believe Seve didn't have a clue where his drives were going and just got lucky all those times he had an open route to recovery.....

Certainly the player who knows his misses and plays accordingly has an advantage over one who doesnt.  
This is true on any course, but more true on a course where the golfer doesnt have to pray for a good lie in the 5 inch rough.  I doubt Seve would have seemed such a wizard if he was repeatedly trying to recover from the deep green grass,  200+ yards from the green.  Which deep green grass do you  think Seve would prefer, left or right?  

Further, these guys are playing to a 28 foot fairway.  On a well hit drive they have a margin of error of about 2.6 degrees on each side of the centerline.   I think you might perhaps be overestimating their abilities if you think they are standing over their shots thinking anything but "down the middle."

I know you far to well to think you subscribe to the notion that a more athletic being is thus less intelegent...sounds like the basis of a stereotype.

You are right I dont subscribe to such theory.  I dont mean to insult the players by calling it "brainless golf."  The course just doesnt offer many interesting decisions.

[JakaB]

David,

I saw far to many players miss left off of the tee on 13 to agree with you....and then they missed right on 14...it wasn't overcorrection...it was the weighing of options.

[JakaB]

JakaB,

Torrey Pines accessable?  Yes.  Easily accessable?  Not remotely.  Ever tried to get a weekend morning tee time?  Have fun getting there at midnight the day before.

If you are implying I am rich or connected than you have less brain cells then you are appearing to have.  I would venture to say that I make less money than anyone that contributes to this website.  So take your holier than thou, populist rhetoric to the first tee of the private golf club that you are a member of, and pipe one down the middle 220 yards in the name of the poor working man.

Rich people complaining about other rich people are what piss me off.


Jeff F.

I love that post...and in its shadow I need to offer Tommy a public apology for not giving him proper ups for telling me to drop my expensive reserved tee time and to just walk up because it would only take about 45 minutes....He was right and it saved me a few bucks...I am sorry Tommy and thank you.

45 minute wait and $85 without having to kiss one ass for access is affordable and easy in my book.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Tommy Naccarato,

The issue with width is that you can have it, only the more width you use the more difficult the next shot presents itself, and then you have a green that is contoured in conjunction with it.

I would strongly DISAGREE with the first part of the above statement.
Width and width alone does not create a more difficult next shot.  The other features and the green complex must be designed such that greater variations from the centerline or desired line of attack are confronted with more difficult angles of attack to the green, more difficult approaches.

Without the contouring/design in conjunction with width, you create greater margins for error off the tee, with no corresponding penalty related to approaching the green.

Not all courses were not designed with width having a negative impact on an errant tee shot and the subsequent approach to the green.

I've often wondered about width at the 3rd, 5th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th holes at NGLA.  Would more width and the utilization of that additional width create more difficult next shots ?  I don't think so.  I think width may have a practical limit for each hole.  And I don't think that width is a universal, I don't think that it was meant to be incorporated into the design of every hole.  

# 15 at NGLA, "NARROWS" would be a perfect example of the deliberate elimination of width on a golf hole, and an example of an instance where width would compromise the design integrity of the hole, and make it easier, not harder to approach.

Simply widening a fairway will not necessarily create a more difficult approach from the edge of that widened fairway unless the green has been designed accordingly, and that may not be the architects intent on that hole.

George Pazin,

You implied that all 36 greens at Torrey Pines were boring,
amongst the most boring in American golf, despite never having seen the golf course, and its 36 greens.

As they showed more and more of the greens yesterday it became apparent that they contained good degrees of break, some of them rather pronounced.  They even showed graphics which showed the contours, slopes and breaks.

You chose to draw a conclusion based on no personal first hand knowledge, and limited, only to the putts you saw on TV

That you phrased your conclusion in the form of a back handed question doesn't absolve you from making a careless remark.

If you were genuine in your interest to learn about the greens at Torrey Pines, you wouldn't have qualified your question with a pre-conceived conclusion, based on extremely limited data and no first hand information.

I stand by my position.

[Brian Phillips]

Pat,

Those are great points about width.

Brian.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Tom MacWood,

Pat/LIRR/ Hambone/Len Itnes
Nice try.

The betting window will remain perpetually open for you, for any amount you want to risk.  Remember, I gave you great odds, but, there is a minimum bet, $ 1,000.

I've asked you time and time again to step up to the plate, to put your money where your mouth is, but, I guess you just don't have the courage of your convictions.

Put a syndicate together, raise as much as you can, I'll cover whatever you come up with.

Doesn't it bother you that you continually harp on this, but don't have the balls to make the bet ?  C'mon, be a man, stand up and make the bet.

I'm curious, with your super sleuthing, why haven't you pointed out that Tommy Naccarato has, and continues to post under a variety of anonymous names, you know, like El Guapo, Sven Bergstrom and others ?

The betting window remains open for you 24/7.

[DMoriarty]

David,

I saw far to many players miss left off of the tee on 13 to agree with you....and then they missed right on 14...it wasn't overcorrection...it was the weighing of options.

I am not so sure.  But even if you are correct, I just dont find the decision between bailing out in rough left or a bunker right to be all that interesting.  

I guess we will see if your theory holds water in 2008, if they grow the rough to usual Open height.  The smart play then might be to bail out (if at all) into the fairway bunkers right.  That way they can avoid hacking out of the cabbage and will likely be able to get to wedge range for their third.  

Hit into a fairway bunker on purpose . . . now that is compelling architecture!

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