William Langford by Mark Chalfant is posted...

[Jay Carstens]

Jeff,
Perhaps more importantly, there are plans now for townhomes to go in east of #10 fairway, supposedly with people in by July (hasn't been touched yet), and a block of 5 acres south of the range is up for sale.  
Jay

[Mike Hendren]

Mike Hendren -

Are the two Langford (?) courses you mention in Memphis and Jackson worth a visit? I may be in that area on business in the next couple of months.

Bob,

I've not played Chickasaw but my impression is it is nothing special.  I would strongly recommend Memphis CC instead as it is a little known Donald Ross design that is perhaps as close to the original as any of his work.  With bermuda greens, it closes in the winter while the members head over to Arkansas to duck hunt.  It may not re-open by the time of your visit.

Jackson CC is 1.5 hours away.  I only suspect it is Langford.  John LaFoy did a significant renovation a few years back, converting the greens to bent.  I have not seen the new work but know the 17th was converted from a mid-length two shotter to a risk/reward par 5.  I have been told the greens were softened.  If so, that's a shame.  Whether Langford or not, it has(had?) some classic golden age features.  

Call me at 615-661-5790 (evenings) if you wish to discuss.

Thanks,

Mike

[john_stiles]

Mike,

Also in east Tennessee,  per C&W,   is Morristown CC now know as the Country Club.  The course has some very interesting greens indeed within a reasonable routing.  Also closer to Knoxville is Green Meadows near the Knoxville airport....although the GM greens are not interesting and routing and course are at best average. Also GM has undergone some changes (as I understand) in last few years and I have not played there in quite a while.

If you are a Langfordphile, you might drop by Morristown (The Country Club) for a visit on your travels along interstate I-81 in east Tennessee. They explain that the greens have never been changed.

[BCrosby]

John -

A little OT, but how the heck does east Tennessee have so many courses with great architectural pedigrees?

You've got Tillie, Ross, Langford, Raynor and I'm sure can fill in some other names I'm missing.

Amazing. Nothing like it anywhere else in the SE.

Is it that the hill people from east Tennessee were born with remarkably discerning architectural tastes or was it something in the moonshine back in the 20's?

Hope you are doing well.

Bob

[TEPaul]

What Jeff Brauer said about C&W getting original architects wrong is true but as far as I'm concerned the value of the "Architects of Golf" outweighs any mistakes about a million times over.

I was talking to Geoffrey Cornish about a year ago about the occasional mistakes in attribution and it's pretty obvious there wasn't that much they could've done about it. They had to go to many of the clubs about what they knew or had to say about their original architect and the fact is some of the clubs are the ones who've always had it wrong.

In the research WayneM and I've been doing for the Flynn book we've already proved at least two clubs wrong on who they thought their original architects were.

As for Wayne Stiles, I've always heard he was a very fine New England architect but I can say without hesitation I sure do wish my club, GMGC in Philadelphia, never hired him in the 1940s for a semi-master plan and some redesign work. For starters he took out all Ross's "Top shot"/Fore bunkers and now the club will never agree to put them back--as much as Gil Hanse pushed for them to be restored. I wish Stiles would've stayed away in the first place. I have Stiles's master plan from the 1940s right here in my office and Man, does his architectural rationale for our course stink!

But other than that, I hear he was a fine architect on his own courses.

[Jay Carstens]

TEPaul,
Interesting about Stiles too.  Actually I've never even set foot on one of his courses so I shouldn't even be talking about him.   I'm not sure, without looking at C&W  , if they even ever made it out this far.
Jay  

[Jay Carstens]

BTW, if OCC ever turns out to actually be Stiles & Van Kleek, I'll say it's the best damn S&V course I've ever seen.  

[Mike Hendren]

John Stiles,

Good to see you posting.  Thanks for the tip re Morristown CC.  I can't believe I've never heard of Green Meadows.  I guess I was too busy frequenting such fine layouts as Pine Lakes, Whittle Springs, Dead Horse Lake, The Orange Tee and Lambert Acres during my college days.

How are things at HH?  I hope the contingent pushing for greater length has remained in the minority.

Mike

[mark chalfant]

  RJ daley,
Thanks for your interesting reply re Chicago
pioneers and  Lawsonia.

What are your thoughts on West Bend and Ozaukee  

Wayne Otto told me that Tripoli is an nice work by Bendelow

What do you feel are some of Bendelows best ?

Thanks
Mark

[mark chalfant]

  Tom  Macwood,

Thanks for help re   Langford/  Bendelow  chronology.

PLease share your thoughts re   Clovernook or Portage,

THanks,

Mark

[RJ_Daley]

Mark, West Bend is one 9 holes by Langford, and the other 9 is Gill and they have been remodelling with Art Hill.  I hope he doesn't mess with the Langford 9.  I haven't seen Ozaukee.  The sad fact is, I haven't seen that much Langford, and am very centered or limitted by Lawsonia.

Of the Bendelow stuff I've seen, which are all 9 holers except #2 at Medinah (ladies course), I'd say you can always count on 2 or three very good holes, and some rather small scale and small idea stuff that fits the old game of short driving distances and smallish greens.  Quic Qui Oc (one of my favorites), about 10 minutes from Blackwolf run in the village of Elkhart Lake (Road America site) is a front 9 museum piece by Bende (circa 1906-9), and a couple of the holes on the back strongly suggest Langford added about late 30s or 40s).  Lohmann has now added another modern 9 there.  I hope to god he doesn't do anything beyond tree removal and some FW bunker recovery if he is engaged to remodel the existing stuff on the old 9s there.  Old Hickory in Beaver Dam is also 9 holes by Bende of which 3-4 are quite good, and 9 others by Unk.  Tescumbia near Green Lake, is Bende from circa, 1903-6.  I haven't seen it in many years, but it is also small scale.  I haven't seen Tripoli, either.

My strongest recomendation for those going to Whistling Straits and other Kohler courses who want to really step back in time is to also see #1Lawsonia- Langford, and Bende's #2QuicQuiOc, #3Tescumbia or Old Hickory.

[Will E]

It's too bad that Ozaukee has lost much of it's Langford roots. Some evidence remains, and for that it's worth seeing. The par three 16th, the 8th green and the birthday cake 14th are excellent.
The front nine at West Bend is incredible. The edges and green complexes are very similar to Lawsonia, though the terrain has more elevation and needs a good tree removal program. As Dick mentioned the other nine should be skipped.

Lawsonia is fantastic, no one here should be allowed a visit to Kohler without seeing the Links. It may be the "funnest" course I've ever played. Langford was really an expert at mixing things up. As someone mentioned at Lawsonia you don't see a par 4 for five holes. At Skokie (not sure if we can give credit to L & M for this), you only get back to back par fours once. Anyone know of another course that can claim that?

Glad Mark shared his work with us, I've got a couple of more trips to plan now.

[RJ_Daley]

Will, "the funnest"?  

Will Ellender shot the best round I have witnessed at Lawsonia, (37-31?)  His only hiccup was a double after hitting one OB on #5.  He also had to pull himself together after having a chip up a false front on #6 rejected back.  Your 3I second shot to #16 was about 210 yards and hit stiff.  Actually holes 9-14 go 6 in a row without a par 4 (5-3-5-3-5-3).  

Will, have you played Seth Raynor's Blue Mound?  After first seeing it last summer on two occasions, one playing and one watching the State Am championship, it has become my new secret love here in WI., maybe nudging out first love Lawsonia a bit.  It would be my first choice if I could join a really great country club.  

[T_MacWood]

Clovernook is a very well preserved Langford design (as of ten years ago) -- it appears little has changed since the 1920's. You will find the typical pushed up greens and either adjoing deep bunkers or grassing fall offs.

It is a fairly short course...if memory serves me about 6600 yards from the tips. And it is streched to the limit, the course was built upon a very small tract of land. In fact its yardage today maybe what it was when constructed. It is a very nice rolling property with a stream coming into play on several holes, as well as a pond. I'd recommend the course to any Langford aficianado (although a bit over treed).

Portage on the other hand is atypical. I have not researched the course's history, but I suspect there is a good reason. From what I understand the course existed long before Langford is thought to have been engaged. It would be interesting to find out what, if anything, he did at Portage. I also believe there was work carried out in the 60's or 70's.

[klangone]

Reading these posts........can someone enlighten me what "NLE" refers to.......I saw it a few times, especially related to New Haven CC

More background on the Yale/New Haven relationship......NHCC was founded by Yale professors who felt the Yale course was getting overrun by students and such.  NHCC states 1898 as there initial start date.......it was a Park Jr creation only after Ross didn't respond to inquiries from the club about an updated course.  The course actually crossed Hartford Tpke at one time.....with holes crossing the road.  I believe the Park Jr changes commenced in the teens.

Having been at NHCC a few times......they do have A LOT of Yale alumni as members.......I sat at a table during lunch....one of the big round tables......and I was the only non-Yale grad sitting there.

[mark chalfant]

  Klangone,

NLE   are  intials  for a course that is: No  Longer in Existence


Mark

[mark chalfant]

   Jay  Carstens,

Thanks for your interest in Langford.

Its my understanding that those alternate greens were not done by Langford. I also like them, especially  the little

pitch down to the sand encircled second. Langford,in his
original design planned 27 holes for this Iowa beauty.

Jay any thoughts on Highlands or Happy Hollow,

it would be great to hear some details re some of the Langford

courses that you like.

 do you like Keith  Fosters  Harvester in  Iowa ?

Thanks for your  help

Mark
 

[mark chalfant]

  Jeff  Mingay,
Thanks for info on Marquette.  Ive heard The short 7th  is nice.
 I think its over   gulley.  Do you agree ?  

Id love to hear  the other holes you find interesting that langford did there.

Whats the land like.   any bold interior contours on the greens?  
thanks  
ps   have you seen  CC of  Lansing or other  Langford work ?

Mark

[mark chalfant]

   Jeff  Goldman:

It would be great to hear more about O.F. south
Do you  like it as much as  Olympia north ?

I have played  Bethpage many times and I prefer Lawsonia
from 40-50 yards in. I love Tillinghast, but I prefer

Lawsonias back 9  over thr Blacks back nine.

Architecturally speaking,  I find  Newport and Philadelphia CC

to be more interesting than the  Black course.

The land at Newport is not nearly as dramatic as BB
But  Tilly did a marvelous job of strategic bunkering,

including some cross bunkering, that test the golfers course

management skills as well as his patience. Many greens
at  Newport, in contrast to  BB,  have brilliant interior
contours.
 Philadelphia is more dramatic than Newport. Overall
I find  PCC more engaging than BB.  Part of this is

because of the brilliant greens by Perry Maxwell but
the  Flynn routing is both challenging and attractive at
Gladwyne.

Perhaps Newport, Philadelphia , and  Lawsonia are not
tough enough  to host a  USGA  mens open.

All three, however, are exemplary creations by
Golden Age  masters.

Mark

[A_Clay_Man]

Golfing Lawsonia pretty much changed my life. Thanx for the write-up, Mark.

I tried to visit their website so I could post some pix, but they are woefully inadequate. Dick Daley's are mucho bettero.



SEE !

Also, On their site they state L&M had over 250 designs to their credit. I wonder what courses in Chicago were his, which he owned and which he designed.

Damn, looks like another long road trip, ahead. Thanx

[Jeff Goldman]

Mark,

   As per our winter assignments, I am working on a "My Home Course" essay about the South Course at Olympia Fields.  It is terrific, with 3 or 4 outstanding holes, a bunch of other good ones, and an excellent set of greens.  The club has a lot of old photos and such, and I'm going to review them in the next couple weeks to learn the evolution of both courses, and to learn what is Bendelow (and Willie Park Jr. on the North), and what isn't.  The South Course has two holes as good as anything on the North - the 360 yard par-4 6th, with a very perched, small, sloping green with a drop of 30-40? feet just off the right edge, and a smaller drop left, and the 215 yard par-3 11th, with an elevated tee shot to an elevated green with a big false front - hit it on there, and the ball rolls way down the fairway.  Pitch it too short, and you use the hole's "automatic ball retriever" to give you another chance.

   That said, the South Course really doesn't compare to the North, especially in the green complexes and sophisticated routing.  I think the new bunkering is also excellent, and gives the North course a very rugged look, even on the flatter holes (I suspect not much was left of Willie Park's original bunkering, but I hope to know more soon).  The rush on that first tee indicates that there is no where else I'd rather be.   I know members of other clubs feel the exact same way about their courses.

Jeff Goldman

[mark chalfant]

   Matt  Ward,

Thanks for your input on  Lawsonia,

I was  wondering  if,  in   your opinion, you have a preference

between   Skokie and  Lawsonia.

Also, do you prefer the strategic merits  or the green complexes at one  course  over the other ?

I personally enjoy  Lawsonias  back nine just as much as the
incoming  9 at Bethpage  Black, any  thoughts ?

thanks