Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?

[Eric LeFante]

Jeff and others--Many people on this thread keep talking about bifurcation, implying that it would be as simple as the USGA setting new equipment rules for the .0001%.  The PGA Tour has said that they will not go along with any roll-back of the ball.  They almost didn't go along with the long putter rule.  Granted, the USGA can set equipment rules for its tournaments--but what happens in all the other non-USGA tournaments?  Thinking that bifurcation can actually happen is a dream.

I think the USGA will only do it if the R&A is on board and I think Augusta will be on board also. If you get the PGA now you have the all the majors and that could really force the PGA Tour's hand. The players have a say and they want to keep getting endorsement money from the manufacturers but I haven't really heard any players say they are opposed to it.


I didn't see the PGA Tour make a comment about this one way or the other.

[JESII]

Eric,


How could a roll back possibly help the PGA Tour?

[Eric LeFante]

Eric,


How could a roll back possibly help the PGA Tour?

I think there's a good chance the USGA, R&A, and Augusta are on the same page. If they get the PGA now you have all four majors using a reduced distance ball. In that scenario, I believe the better players will want to play the reduced distance ball all year round to give them the best chance to play well in the majors. If the better players carry more weight than the average players and the players as a whole want to the play the reduced distance ball, the PGA Tour is partially governed by players and is run for its players so they will do whatever the players want. I don't think the PGA Tour has a dog in this fight; it's the players that will determine what it does.


I think it could get interesting with the best players vs the average players because the best players care about the majors and the average players want to keep getting X from the ball manufacturers.


I think the USGA, with its association with the R&A, and Augusta's desire to keep the integrity of its golf course in tact, could really make everyone else go along.

[JESII]

I think you need to take an honest assessment of the business the PGA Tour, and it's players, are in.


If Augusta went to a rolled back ball, the top players would simply take off the couple weeks leading up to it to practice. They would not go into the standard Tour events with a ball going 10% or 20% shorter than most of the field. No shot...

[jeffwarne]

  Thinking that bifurcation can actually happen is a dream.

That was the standard party line when this thread started in 2004 and for the last 13 years.
It may be different this time.


It's being discussed by very influential people-it never was before other than by us curmudgeons.


The next 2 threads below this are
"Golf is sinking in Scotland"
and "Matt Lauer's Favorite golf holes"
followed closely by "Things that can be eliminated to reduce the cost of golf-ummm land....umm...new back tees.....ummm....$500 drivers"
and "2017 Best New Courses" a list so short they had to create 3 subcategories.

So unthinkable things CAN happen-and generally quicker than thought possible....

Both biifurcation and/or a rollback make waaaaaay more sense than barring anchoring and pre 2010 grooves....(neither condition ever once caused modification of or lengthening of a golf hole)

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Erik,
"Crazy hypotheticals?

Yes, the falling of the NFL and that the kids who would grow up to play, what, linebacker grow up to play high-level golf is a crazy hypothetical.

More money is completely relative

It isn't. There's much more money in the game - even weighed against inflation, etc. - than there was in the 70s and 80s.

So why would bifurcation be a problem?-if it would just be the .0001% affected.

It wouldn't be just the 0.001%.

And history rejects your argument that technology and human performance are capped

And the last ten years supports it. Which is exactly how things work. Fill a bottle slowly and right until the time it's full, it's going to show a history of having more room.

It was a different time - but to suggest the game was 'relatively small - especially abroad' is a massive misinterpretation of the game outside of America.

Share some facts; I think you're wrong. The game is much, much bigger now than in the 1980s outside of the U.S.

Now, Jeff and others, please respect the fact that I'd like to stop participating in this topic. I'm not saying anything new, and repeating myself isn't really doing anyone any favors.   I've enjoyed the discussion to this point, but I just don't like repeating myself. And Tim is often, by not responding to every little thing, saying it better than I have anyway. 

[jeffwarne]

Erik,
"Crazy hypotheticals?

Yes, the falling of the NFL and that the kids who would grow up to play, what, linebacker grow up to play high-level golf is a crazy hypothetical.

More money is completely relative

It isn't. There's much more money in the game - even weighed against inflation, etc. - than there was in the 70s and 80s.

So why would bifurcation be a problem?-if it would just be the .0001% affected.

It wouldn't be just the 0.001%.

And history rejects your argument that technology and human performance are capped

And the last ten years supports it. Which is exactly how things work. Fill a bottle slowly and right until the time it's full, it's going to show a history of having more room.

Now, Jeff, please respect the fact that I'd like to stop participating here. I'm not saying anything new. Nor are you.

That is quite an eloquent way of saying you'd like to have the last word.
Very creative.
It's a discussion board-that's what we do.
Respectfully, no one is stopping you from your preferred course to "stop participating here"
Nor is anyone suggesting it-your choice.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

That is quite an eloquent way of saying you'd like to have the last word.

It's not. Carry on. Take the last ten thousand words… I'm just asking that those words not be directed at me, ask me questions, etc.

Take care.

[Eric LeFante]

I think you need to take an honest assessment of the business the PGA Tour, and it's players, are in.


If Augusta went to a rolled back ball, the top players would simply take off the couple weeks leading up to it to practice. They would not go into the standard Tour events with a ball going 10% or 20% shorter than most of the field. No shot...

I agree you with, no one is going to play in an event with a reduced distance ball when the field is playing a regular ball.


Augusta is not going to go at this alone, just like the USGA won't go at it alone. But when you combine Augusta, the USGA, and the R&A, that becomes pretty powerful. The best players will not want to have to adjust 3 times per year (or 4 if PGA goes along). The best players will want the PGA Tour to adopt the reduced distance ball if all the majors require it in my opinion. Then it becomes a battle between the players. If the players come to a consensus that they want the reduced distance ball, the PGA Tour will do what its members want.

[John Kavanaugh]

It takes about a dozen or so shots to adjust from 5000 ft of elevation to zero...from 80 degs to 40. Please.


As a side note in 1974 the small ball was made nonconforming for the Open. Not until 1990 was it outlawed entirely. I never found the small ball worth an extra 20 yds, but then again I never get 20 yds out of a new driver either.

[Pete Lavallee]

Erik,

In the interest of full disclosure, I am a native of New Bedford Ma. where Titleist is made. I am a loyal patron and wouldn't even think of trying another ball let alone use it. That being said I think Wally stance is dead wrong. Titleist made the best wound ball, the best 3 piece ball and they should be able to make the best reduced flight ball as well. Why they are so scared of loosing market share is crazy.

You are a Golf Pro and I assume have your name on the back your golf bag. What Equipment Co. do have on the side of it?

[Rich Goodale]

Interesting to see this thread being resuscitated after 13 years in a coma.  I was involved in the 2004 thread largely flippantly given that in the Golden Age of this forum (1999-2002) we had already sorted this issue.  To paraphrase, the answers were and are:


1.  The USGA was and is morbidly afraid of lawsuits, given their failures in the Polara and Ping issues.
2.  Somewhere along the line in the 1980's and 90's, the USGA decided that it was their holy mission to "grow the game, even though the demographics were not in their favor.  Average member ages increasing every year.  High and increasing costs of membership and participation (clubs, balls, apparel, shoes and other accoutrements);  cheaper and more time friendly recreational for younger families; etc.
3.  The people who are in charge of growing the game (the pros and the greenkeepers) are poorly paid and still considered serfs by the powers that be.
4.  Paradoxically, the pros need to sell sweaters, tees, course books, poker ships, lessons and BALLS to make a living, but if a rollback brings the price of all sleeves to <$5, there goes the biggest earner for most pros (I speculate--am I wrong?).
5.  Going  back to the Golden Ages threads, the simplest answer for the question above, is The Augusta Conspiracy.  Announce a roll back to the ProV1 (or equivalent whatever) and set a date for compliance, maybe this year, maybe next.  Few if any playing pros will decline to play and we'll be seeing more Faldoesques 2-iron off the pine straw and fewer anybodies bombing and gouging their way around the course.  The punters see it and demand the "Masters Ball," slowly but surely.  Eventually most courses who have platinum back tees in the woods or gorse will stop maintaining them and leave them to nature.


Oops!  Just woke up from a happy dream.  What did I say?


Rich

[JESII]

You said that if Augusta decides to mandate a rolled back ball for their event, the only friction in the system will be how soon you and I can find a sleeve at the local golf shop...

[JESII]

Would the game of golf truly suffer if the traveling major championships were no longer played on the great courses?


Erin Hills
Chambers Bay
Congressional
Torrey Pines






Quali Hollow
Valhalla
Atlanta Athletic
Hazeltine
Sahalee




I suspect the Open Championship has a stronger (more consistently great) cast of venues than the two traveling majors in the states, but the point is; the administrators are already venturing to non-great courses to host. Has it hurt? Why would it hurt if the majors went to average courses built to handle the traveling circus?

[jeffwarne]

Would the game of golf truly suffer if the traveling major championships were no longer played on the great courses?


Erin Hills
Chambers Bay
Congressional
Torrey Pines






Quali Hollow
Valhalla
Atlanta Athletic
Hazeltine
Sahalee




I suspect the Open Championship has a stronger (more consistently great) cast of venues than the two traveling majors in the states, but the point is; the administrators are already venturing to non-great courses to host. Has it hurt? Why would it hurt if the majors went to average courses built to handle the traveling circus?

Yes, it would hurt.
As golf continues to expand to large scale venues, golfers come to accept 5-6 hours as the norm which promotes playing less often or cartball.
The more we normalize big, sloggy spread out routings, the more we all suffer, and the more such courses are copycatted/tolerated.
To say nothing of how spectating both live and on TV become boring and/or an endurance test.


Give me Merion or Pebble as a legitimate US Open test, or the great courses of the Open rota, or ANGC(a big scale to start with) without the new bottlenecking sloggish walkbacks (2,7,8,9,11,13?)


Is there room for new courses for championships?
absolutely-because more could be built on a manageable scale if they weren't worried about building more tees in in 5-10 years

[Rich Goodale]

You said that if Augusta decides to mandate a rolled back ball for their event, the only friction in the system will be how soon you and I can find a sleeve at the local golf shop...supplier,

Hi Jim


IMO there will be a fair amount of friction for a year or two, as the players will keep playing what they have been playing (partly due to feel and partly due to the dosh they get from their suppliers) and punters begin to realize that they get nothing out of ProVi's and wonder why they are paying 3X more than they should.  The real key will be when the PGA makes the Augusta Ball mandated at the Players.  Sawgrass can't be stretched much more and rolling back would make this event closer to becoming the "5th Major" (given that the rest of the rota are still bomb and gouging beyond what we mortals can do).  Also, the Players is moving to Mid-March in 2019, which would make it a great warm-up for the Masters, if both mandated the ball.  Harbourtown might just jump on the bandwagon, too, who knows wnhat next?


Rich

[Rich Goodale]

Would the game of golf truly suffer if the traveling major championships were no longer played on the great courses?


Erin Hills
Chambers Bay
Congressional
Torrey Pines






Quali Hollow
Valhalla
Atlanta Athletic
Hazeltine
Sahalee




I suspect the Open Championship has a stronger (more consistently great) cast of venues than the two traveling majors in the states, but the point is; the administrators are already venturing to non-great courses to host. Has it hurt? Why would it hurt if the majors went to average courses built to handle the traveling circus?

I have no problem with the US Open (and PGA, but they'll probably be the last to concede, or maybe even carve out a niche for a 7500-8000yd major for the "old" balls).  As for the USGA Open, build new concepts such as Erin Hills and Chambers Bay, but scale them back to the new ball, which makes their efforts much closer to bringing the average or potential golfer back to our courses..


Rich

[JMEvensky]

You said that if Augusta decides to mandate a rolled back ball for their event, the only friction in the system will be how soon you and I can find a sleeve at the local golf shop...supplier,

Hi Jim


IMO there will be a fair amount of friction for a year or two, as the players will keep playing what they have been playing (partly due to feel and partly due to the dosh they get from their suppliers) and punters begin to realize that they get nothing out of ProVi's and wonder why they are paying 3X more than they should.  The real key will be when the PGA makes the Augusta Ball mandated at the Players.  Sawgrass can't be stretched much more and rolling back would make this event closer to becoming the "5th Major" (given that the rest of the rota are still bomb and gouging beyond what we mortals can do).  Also, the Players is moving to Mid-March in 2019, which would make it a great warm-up for the Masters, if both mandated the ball.  Harbourtown might just jump on the bandwagon, too, who knows wnhat next?


Rich

Isn't this a subset of the Goodale Unification Through Bifurcation Theory (tm)?

[Rich Goodale]

[quote author=JMEvensky link=topic=8094.msg1557653#msg1557653 date=15126760

Isn't this a subset of the Goodale Unification Through Bifurcation Theory (tm)?



Mr Evensky


You are obviously not following my non-existent blog, which has now morphed into Goodale Unification Through Bifurcation Universal Theory (TM), which is now GUTBUTT Morphology, LLC


Thank you for your thoughts.


r

[Pete Lavallee]

Would the game of golf truly suffer if the traveling major championships were no longer played on the great courses?


Erin Hills
Chambers Bay
Congressional
Torrey Pines

Quali Hollow
Valhalla
Atlanta Athletic
Hazeltine
Sahalee

I suspect the Open Championship has a stronger (more consistently great) cast of venues than the two traveling majors in the states, but the point is; the administrators are already venturing to non-great courses to host. Has it hurt? Why would it hurt if the majors went to average courses built to handle the traveling circus?

Jim,

The answer would be yes, IF the USGA was OK with a score significantly below par. No matter what they say you know Mike Davis is trying for even par to win the US Open. Erin Hills backfired and maybe that was the catalyst to realize that length alone won't keep these guys from going low.

[Mike_Clayton]

Erik,


Maybe it's bigger now outside of the US - It certainly in in Asia - but to suggest the game was 'relatively small' outside of US in the 1980s is just silly. They are two completely different things.
And it still begs the question of the Rest of the World giving up 25 yards (in theory) because America forced it upon them in the early 80s.
I'm not sure why American golfers cannot endure the same without great complaint in order to defend the intent of the great architects and the great courses without adding hundreds of yards - space so many of these great courses outside of America don't have.

[jeffwarne]

This just came across my Facebook feed linked to Shackelford's site.


Bamberger says it as clearly, as eloquently, as logically, and yes, as romantically as I've seen it in print. He references the self bifurcation I referred to earlier (balata vs. two piece surlyn in the 60's and upward decades)





http://www.golf.com/tour-news/2017/11/30/case-introducing-reduced-flight-ball-majors-and-case-against-it

Wally Uihlein is concerned one type of player will be favored over another.
Shocker-we have that now-and most of the shorter hitters have been driven out.
Yet they all still manage to play a ProV1.
Uihlein is talking his position-as expected.


So the guys who brought us a ball that goes 10-15% farther than it used to ,.....can't find a way to create an equitable ball/balls that travel shorter.
i.e. everybody hits it 10% shorter
I find that hard to believe-certainly a conversation could be had before they fire up the lawyers.


Somehow golf was able to be played by experts with balata and blades, while higher handicappers used two piece surlyn and cavity backs.


Why not now?


Damn-just as I start to get old injured and short off the tee....maybe balatalike will give me a reason to tee it forward and walk shorter distances.
Crazy I know.

[John Kavanaugh]

Who is going to be the expert police? I'll quit before I let some asshole judge me.

[John Kavanaugh]

I see myself walking off the 18th and some kid with his shirt buttoned to the top meets me in the parking lot. He informs me.."Mr. Kavanaugh, we have been observing your play and have found it to be "below par" for the equipment and tees you have been using. Here is a "free" sleeve of balls that have been determined to improve your enjoyment of the game. Oh, and btw...we'll know next time you are on the course which tees, how many and how long it takes you to play. Have fun!!!"


No way I ever play again.

[jeffwarne]

I see myself walking off the 18th and some kid with his shirt buttoned to the top meets me in the parking lot. He informs me.."Mr. Kavanaugh, we have been observing your play and have found it to be "below par" for the equipment and tees you have been using. Here is a "free" sleeve of balls that have been determined to improve your enjoyment of the game. Oh, and btw...we'll know next time you are on the course which tees, how many and how long it takes you to play. Have fun!!!"


No way I ever play again.

I'll take the other side of that bet