[George Pazin]

The cliffs look nice, and I even applaud Rees for moving a few greens closer to the cliffs, but has anyone seen a putt break more than 6 inches?

Watching pros lip out tapped putts from 12 feet that broke 1 inch instead of the estimated 2 is pretty close to my idea of torture.

If I go to hell, it will be an endless stream of flat greens stimping out at 14.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Pazin,

What did you think of AWT's work at Bethpage ?

[A_Clay_Man]

George, The truth I found (so. course only once 10 yrs ago)was that they are not flat, per se. They are just very predictable because they all have the same degree of ocean pull, with not too much deviation from internal contours. I know that actually means flat, but they're more like tilted plates.

[SPDB]

I have no idea. Bear in mind, however, that TV flattens contours.

[Lou_Duran]

George,

I played TP-S right before the KP two years ago (post Rees), and the greens and surrounds were fine.  The greens are generally built-up, tilted, and with some internal contouring, tiers, and small plateaus (though nothing at all like Black Mesa or The Rawls Course).

The unnecessary extra length, mundane par 5s, and long, somewhat repetitive par-3 holes were the primary downsides to the course.  Conditioning is also an issue, with wet turf in particular.  The 11th and 12th holes (par 4, 505+/- yards, into the wind/Pacific and a slope) are ridiculously difficult.

It would be great if they played the course all the way back at least one day.  If the turf is wet, the greens spiked-up, and the wind blows, it could be one tough course.    

[Tommy_Naccarato]

George,
this is the ultimate model for Golf Course Set-up Stupification. Matter of fact, I think Rees may have wrote the manual on it whle building this course.

Lou hits on all the key points--blue grass so thick that when you strike at it with a golf club you feel as if you have slewed a water-buffalo; the greens and as you point out their new locations--closer to the cliffs, a vast improvement. Still nothing that would remotely allow this to be considered in the same class or breath as a Bethpage, Olympic, Oakland Hills, Shinnecock, Pebble Beach and Pinehurst, etc. when in terms of holding a National Championship.

This golf course is lucky to be the site of a once in a year tour event. It has one thing going for it--the photographic opportunities for television. Imagine the camera shots of Black's Beach down below, where Janet Jackson will be sun bathing with Justine Timberlake in hopes of getting-in another shot from the camera. Impressive.

Yes, George, they are close the most boring 36 greens in golf, but at dusk when the sun is fading fast into the Pacifc, and its just you and your clubs out there walking the much maligned, and far scenic North Course, its pretty cool.

[Tim_Weiman]

George Pazin/Pat Mucci:

My memory might be fading, but I don't think I would recommend the greens at either Torrey Pines or Bethpage Black as worthy of study.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim, et. al.,

Then how about the greens at Garden City Golf Club ?

[Matt_Ward]

I agree with Tommy regarding Torrey -- the North is a better example of what could have been done but overall the entire facility (I have not played the post Rees Jones South Course) really fails to be so much more than what it is.

Tim W:

Your memory needs a bit of an improvement regarding the greens at Bethpage Black. There are no less than six holes in which the putting surfaces are quite interesting (e.g. 1st, 5th, 8th, 12th, 15th and 17th -- to name just the more obvious candidates).

I will concede BB is nowhere in the same league as Winged Foot West or Oakmont regarding overall study, however, this tired notion that BB doesn't really have any greens worthwhile to discuss is more of flimsy attempt to discredit the overall qualities of the course.

No offense to you though.

[George Pazin]

Let me be perfectly clear: I haven't played TP South or North (nor Bethpage Black).

And I am well aware of the visual limitations of TV (and regular photography for that matter - I have a slew of Oakmont photos that don't do the course justice).

I am basing this on the number of putts I saw that did not break more than 3-4 inches, at least judging by TV - watch the highlights on TGC if you think I'm exaggerating. They did a recap of Tiger's round during the broadcast today and it didn't look like any of the putts, even 20+ footers, broke more than a few inches. It was just, tap, roll, roll, roll, roll, lip out.

I'll have to pull out my tape of the last round at Bethpage, but I would swear I at least saw some pitch to a few greens that caused some putts to break a few feet.

My home muni has rather bland greens, but if they were as bad as TP, I would find another muni. Fast. They have more break and they probably stimp at 6-8. And it's a freakin' $15 muni, for cryin' out loud!

This isn't a criticism of Rees, I have no idea what they were like before he got there. Heck, they might have been flatter (though that's hard to imagine). I'm not looking to assign blame, though it does make me wonder what the mission statement was...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

George,
The only thing I'm criticizing of Rees is the choice of rough and USGA Open mentality set-up that will undoubtedly identify the best Prosac-enhanced golfer in 2000whenever.

As far as the greens. They is no question that they have a lot more definition then they ever did BR. (Before Rees) It is a vast improvement over Billy Bell Jr., whom by the way was fully capable of building unique greens as seen at Rancho San Jouquin in Irvine. The Punch Bowl 18th, which American Golf destroyed some years back, was a paradox to the greens at Torrey Pines. He missed some great opportunities at Sandpiper and Los Verdes too.

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt Ward:

I know you are a big fan of Bethpage and quite familiar with the course. I'm not having only played it twice. But, with this limited experience, my recollection is that other things stood out about Bethpage much more than the greens - certainly when you compare them to something like those at Winged Foot. My last visit to BB was ten years ago, so I'd certainly enjoy going to have another look.

Pat Mucci:

I'll confess I sometimes have a limited ability to take everything in while visiting a golf course. Garden City, like Bethpage, stands out for other things than the greens. The place is such a tranquil stepping back in time that the "feel" of the place can be a bit overwhelming. I'd probably have to schedule a visit just to study the greens to really give you an opinion.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
Would it be safe to say that GCGC is the type of course where getting on to greens in relation to the pin is way more then half the fun?

I too am like Tim. I would love to just spend about two or three days looking, not playing Garden City seeing the genius in this phenominal place. (By passing #12 of course!)

[TomSteenstrup]

Is the consensus here that money is more well-spent playing the North than the South course?  

From the blimp-views the South course struck me as looking very boring, sort of the anti-GCA version of a golf course.

[Thomas_Brown]

OK - I 100% disagree w/ this thread!  
I'm not the greatest fan of the either South or North, but it sounds like few of the above posters have played it post Rees.

The green slopes on the following are wicked:
2,5,9,13,17

I think they will have problems w/ Open speeds finding hole locations on some of those like they had at Bethpage #15 and Tulsa #18.

A college buddy of mine was the club champ there a few years ago.  He mentioned a year or so ago, that there was chatter about revamping the North to give it teeth like the South.  But if you're there for only one round, go South.  The North only has a few holes of any remote interest.  They are: #5, #6, #7, #11, #13.  Notwithstanding kikuyu, the South does have a few quality golf holes by anyone's standards I'd think.

Overall, I'd say out of 36 greens, half of them are dull.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I have been playing Torrey fairly  regularly to only occassionally for 21 years, the bunkering was boring, but Bell's greens  were actually very challenging.  For not much longer (Rees will soon mess up the North), the North is actually an interesting course.  Sure there are several weak holes, but 5-8 , 11-13 are really good holes.  3 is a fun tricky short par 3.  By the way, the North greens are interesting and have quite a  lot of undulation. In addition, the ocean factor makes (putts do actually break up hilland toward the ocean at times) these greens very hard to putt.  The low scores come from all 4 par 5's being easily reached and 3 par 4's almost being reachable.  What's most disappointing about Torrey is knowing what could have been.  The potential for greatness exists, but the wrong architect for such an achievement was chosen.  No surprise.  Only Barona Creek has gotten it right  among the many new courses--perhaps the expectations are very low.  Most San Diegans are conditioned to Ted Robinson courses--Rees can look great in this context!

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Pazin,

Let me be perfectly clear: I haven't played TP South or North (nor Bethpage Black).

This isn't a criticism of Rees,

Then what is it ?

I have no idea what they were like before he got there.

Then how can you make the comments you made in your initial post ?

You've never seen the greens at TP South or North,
You've never seen the greens at Bethpage,
nor GCGC,
Yet, you're willing to make a qualitative evaluation of TP's greens, and comparisons with greens on other courses.

That seems reckless and irresponsible to me  

[George Pazin]

Congratulations on joining the conspiracy theorist lunatic fringe.

I asked a question about the complex based on what I saw on TV. Period.

I don't know if they are as boring as they appear. I don't know if the original architect is responsible for today's greens, or some random superintendent, or in fact Rees.

You criticise others all the time for not reading posts correctly - not only are you not reading mine correctly, you are going one step further and attributing incorrect things to them.

I couldn't care less if you think my question is irresponsible - it is a question, not an indictment.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Pazin,

Like the question, "When did you stop beating your wife ?"

There's an implicit intent to indict

[George Pazin]

Furthermore, let me ask you this:

If I said to you the thought Congressional had the worst routing of any Open course over the last 10 years, would you also read that as a criticism of Rees?

You start more threads with leading questions than any other person on this site (often saying later that it isn't necessarily your view, you're just posing a question to open debate) and you have the temerity to call my thread and questions irresponsible? That is a joke.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Pazin,

If I said to you the thought Congressional had the worsdt routing of any Open course over the last 10 years, would you also read that as a criticism of Rees?

Don't try to divert the attention away from your post on Torrey Pines, the above comment has nothing to do with the greens at Torrey Pines.

You start more threads with leading questions than any other person on this site (often saying later that it isn't necessarily your view, you're just posing a question to open debate) and you have the temerity to call my thread and questions irresponsible? That is a joke.

At least when I start a thread on a golf course it's based on the FACT that I've SEEN the golf course and features being discussed, in person.

That allows me to weigh and respond to other posts in an intelligent, fact based manner.  I would think that personal, on site observation qualifies one to render an opinion, and debate the issues, versus never having been on the golf course.

You've never set foot on Torrey Pines but are making qualitative judgements about the greens, which several people familiar with the golf course are refuting.

So, one would have to ask, what was the purpose of your thread ?  It couldn't be to debate or address the issues because you've never been on the golf course, or examined those greens up close and personal.

How would you evaluate any answer ?

Just so you know, ANGC's greens look relatively flat on TV

[Brian Phillips]

Pat,

I have never met you but feel I know you opinions on certain things and would like to ask you...as a favour to me...here in in the cold...

Stop putting BOLD type on your bloody answers...it really annoys me and I find it hard to read it...thanks..

You have the intelligence and humour to not need the extra gimmick...please...

Brian

[HamiltonBHearst]

I would be interested in learning more about the greens at Torrey Pines.  Who even owns the course and what was the directive that Rees had to adhere to.

I suspect if this work was done by someone other than Rees or Fazio we would not even have a thread.

[George Pazin]

So, one would have to ask, what was the purpose of your thread ?  It couldn't be to debate or address the issues because you've never been on the golf course, or examined those greens up close and personal.

THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD IS TO ASK THE QUESTION OF IF TORREY PINES GREENS ARE THE MOST BORING OF ANY 36 HOLE COMPLEX IN THE U.S. I THOUGHT THAT WAS PRETTY DAMN OBVIOUS BASED ON MY OPENING REMARKS, WHICH EVEN INCLUDED A !@#$ING COMPLIMENT TO REES.

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME THAT THIS IS A "WHEN DID YOU STOP BEATING YOUR WIFE?" QUESTION.

I ASKED THE QUESTION AND THEN CLARIFIED THAT THE OBSERVATION IS BASED ON WATCHING PUTTS THAT DID NOT BREAK MUCH. IT IS MY EXPERIENCE THAT GREENS WITH CONTOUR AND/OR PITCH CAUSE PUTTS TO BREAK. MAYBE I AM WRONG WITH THAT OBSERVATION, THOUGH GRAVITY WOULD TEND TO PRECLUDE THAT. I ALSO STATED THAT I AM WELL AWARE OF HOW TV FLATTENS CONTOURS - OR DID YOU NOT READ THAT?

I HAVE LONG MAINTAINED THAT I AM VERY DIFFICULT TO OFFEND. THIS IS COMING DAMN CLOSE.

I ASKED A SIMPLE QUESTION.

WHERE DO YOU GET OFF TELLING ME I DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO ASK THAT QUESTION?

IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THE ANSWER, THEN BACK OFF AND LET OTHERS GIVE ME THEIR OPINION.

P.S. to Brian - sorry about the bold. Just needed to shout a bit.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian Phillips,

I do so to seperate the text of the quote from my response, within the quote, it makes it easier to differentiate the points.

I could do it in color but BOLD seems easier.

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