Shallow greens SHOULD be extinct

[BCrosby]

Tom's views trouble me because major design decisions are being driven by some dubious assumptions about how weak players play. The theory seems to be that because weak players can't spin the ball, they don't have a chance on shallow greens, thus we shouldn't build 'em if any kind of forced carry is involved.

My experience is that these players CAN spin the ball with lofted clubs. At 110 yards or so, my wife has a better chance of stopping her 9i than hitting it straight. She is a charming, bright and a delightful woman. But she gives new meaning to the phrase "pathetic golfer," god bless her. The same applies to her father who is quite frail and in his mid-80's. When they make contact with their wedges, however, their balls stop.

It seems to me that basing a design theory on a debatable view of how weaker players play is not a good beginning point for a design theory. Especially if it means doing away with a wonderful feature found on may great courses.

Shivas -

Not sure I agree. Take ANGC. Nos. 2 and 7 are shallow greens. Both are wonderfully contoured. No. 2 is wild. No. 7 has some incredible little knobs. There are some spots middle left that are unpinnable because they are so knobby (knobbie?).  

Bob

[SL_Solow]

Part of the answer to Shivas' issue lies in one of Tom Doak's caveats to his initial premise; he is not opposed to the shallow green if there exists room to bounce or run the ball on to the green.  The contouring Shivas seeks can be supplied in the area immediately in front of the green so as to provide interest in the run up shot.  So long as the green and its surrounds are maintained in a firm and fast condition, even the "better" player will be required to run up many approaches and will be faced with interesting and unusual shots.  I had the pleasure of playing Rustic Canyon for the first time this weekend and there are several holes which exhibit this combination of characteristics.

[BCrosby]

Shivas -

Yes, ANGC is a special course. I take you point. (But I did answer your question. )

Shallow greens, being smaller greens, will inevitably have less internal contouring. Whether a shallow green is good or bad turns on other factors - like surrounds, green shape, angle to play and recovery areas.

(Internal contouring is, correspondingly, much more important on a normal green and the other factors slightly less important.)

It's a little like criticizing a little piggy bank because it holds fewer pennies than a big piggy bank.

Bob