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Craig Van Egmond

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Hot Property in Washington State
« on: February 03, 2004, 03:54:52 PM »

Another interesting article on Cybergolf is on a hot new site in Washington and the architects they have narrowed down the choice to. Some interesting picks, somewhat disappointing really.

http://www.cybergolf.com/region.asp?id=1853&placeID=1


Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2004, 04:06:04 PM »
Craig,
The picks are less disappointing than the mission statement:

“(to)design a 27-hole golf course capable of attracting PGA, LPGA and USGA national tournaments.”
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom_Doak

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Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2004, 05:35:04 PM »
Craig:

We actually did submit a proposal for that job but we weren't among the top five chosen to be interviewed.

I hate RFP's.  I guess it shows!

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2004, 06:01:01 PM »

Tom,

      Well, you've got to lose one once in a while. Your batting average seems to be very high lately.

      Did you get a chance to walk the property? Is it as good as it looks from the picture?

      It will be interesting to see who comes out a winner on this one.


     


A_Clay_Man

Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2004, 06:49:21 PM »
I laughed when they mentioned the gravel mine and then shot values. Sheesh

BTW, Tacoma just won "most stressed out" place to live.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2004, 06:56:01 PM »
I've been through the RFP process, and like Tom Doak, I hate it too. What does putting together an "attractive" RFP have to do with designing a great golf course? Nothing.

Correct me if I'm wrong (!), but I'm sure Tom Doak didn't put together an RFP for Mr. Keiser in the process of landing the Pacific Dunes gig. If it was required, Doak might have landed the job!

I bet not one architect of what we would consider to be the greatest golf courses designed and constructed in the past half-century was selected on the basis of an RFP proposal. But, as is the case here, such a requirement is typical of a municipal government searching for a golf course designer.

It's too bad if the site is as good as advertised in the article.  
« Last Edit: February 03, 2004, 06:57:43 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

SPDB

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Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2004, 07:37:41 PM »
AClayman -

I laughed at the same thing. Shot values based on an unbuilt course?

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2004, 08:04:18 PM »
More important to the whole process is the overall environment into which this proposed course is to built.  

Sumner Meadows, a Harbottle design, is in pretty serious trouble and the Town of Sumner is in the process of determining whether to turn that property into Condominiums.  

Allenmore Golf Course appears to be vacant most of the time. Owned by the local Elks Club, this property boasts spectacular views of both State Route #16 and Mt. Rainier.  

McCormick Woods Golf Course was recently sold at what could only be described as a bargain price.  

Trophy Lake Golf & Casting continues to operate after a bankruptcy sale by OB Sports.  

Washington National was also involved in the sale by OB Sports to Heritage Golf.  

A new Golf Course is planned in Dupont, just south of the gravel pit, the WSGA and PNGA are said to be involved in that project on the old Dupont Dynamite plant superfund site.  Another question to ask is whether The local golf associations should be competing with their member clubs?

And finally, local private clubs, Canterwood Country Club, Fircrest Golf Club, Oakbrook Golf & Country and Tacoma Country Club are all competing for members and at last guess none were full.  

This may be an interesting site but economics, weather, and construction costs could spell disaster for the local community looking to construct this pit.  Not a gravel pit but a money pit.  

How many destination tourists are going to travel to Tacoma to play when no other destination courses exist to support further rounds?  
« Last Edit: February 03, 2004, 08:05:39 PM by Cos »

Tom_Doak

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Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2004, 08:07:50 AM »
Nobody is going to Tacoma as a "destination resort."  However, the Seattle market is a huge one, and there are plenty of tourists there as well, so if they can successfully develop a stunning course that is clearly the best in the area they will do just great.  [If they don't, they won't.]

I was not able to get to the site on the two days available for tours, which may be why we didn't advance to the list of finalists.  Don and Brian did go down to take a peek and said it had pretty good potential, depending on what the county's input is.  Often these sorts of projects suffer from a golf context because they're trying to appease the non-golfing community as well.

FREEMAHC

Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2004, 08:15:18 AM »
I would guess tht since some (if not all) of the funding is coming from the county, per government bylaws they had no choice but to send out an RFP and make it open to all bidders. Now the county may very well have alreayd decided who they wanted ot design the course a long time ago, Tom might have never had a chance no mater how 'attractive' his offer was. This hapens all the time whenever RFP's go out. Legally the county probably had to do it, privately, they probably have one architect in mind and that's who will magically win the bid.

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2004, 09:07:53 AM »

Cos,

        When I left the Puget Sound area about 18 months ago, the golf course market was in bad shape, sounds like it hasn't gotten any better.  I think ultimately it will be good for golfers as the market was out of control, although some private clubs may have to re-think their strategies. I played Sumner Meadows a few times, not a horrible course but a couple of dangerous spots on parallel fairways.

        Isn't John Harbottle from Tacoma?  I wouldn't be surprised if he is selected,  especially with the well deserved success of his Olympic course at Gold Mountain.


Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2004, 10:06:07 AM »
We also put in a proposal, although it fell under the "rule no. 2" section of my business practice. (Rule 1 is don't go after jobs you can't get, and rule 2 is "Twice a year.....break rule number one.)  With only moderate name recognition, no work in the area, and only the Quarry in Minnesota as a similar reclamation project, I felt that I was a weak candidate.  On the other hand, I got a $300 airfare to Seattle, the Bears were playing the SeaHawks the day before, and I did a little sightseeing in a town I had never visited, so for $500 or so, I got a chance to combine business with pleasure, so why not?

As noted, most public work requires fairly open access and even competition for design work, even if they may really have someone in mind.  The head guy is a real golf nut, which is why I think (no real knowlege, mind you) Mickelson got in.  Harbottle, Jones and Cupp have good work there, and are logical choices, and someone may have played one of Hurdzan Fry great courses.  So, I thought the final five made a lot of sense, compared to some RFQ results, where there is always a "Huh?" finalist none of us in the biz can figure out.

They recieved 56 proposals, and DQ'd 12 right off the bat for some technical non-compliance, leaving 44 of us fighting for the top 5 spots, not a great average.  They are paying the top 5 a small fee for a design competition, so they are going about this right, from an architects perspective.

However, an "interesting" trend in RFQ processes is the 30 page, narrowly targeted and very specific proposal requirements.  Most owners seem to have figured out that getting 200 page company profiles that say nothing about what you would do for them is not giving them the information they need to make a decision.  The net result to interested architects is that we need to spend a week or so thinking about just what we propose for the project that we don't have.  

They usually also require these be in a set order, so that they could compare the 44 proposals side by side if necessary.  We can't use any "boilerplate" materials now.  And, I suspect if my proposal to Pierce County somehow slipped through with an inadvertant reference to "greens mix in Texas" or some other term, ias a result of a non complete search and replace function, t would be dismissed immediately.  

While its easier than it used to be to show design proposals using photoshop, etc., its still a lot of very specific work.  

As to the site, it was full of potential for both shot values and scenery, as noted in the press release.  I'll bet one reason I got booted was that I gently mentioned that I felt the contours and acreage made the site more suitable for a great 18 that a mediocre 27, espcecially given that they wanted to preserve some of the native vegetation areas, and that tournament courses need room for spectators, et al.  They also had some multi-use ideas, including trails through the course that sound fine until some kid gets boinked on his head while riding a bike through the course.

Well, they asked for our honest opinions and proposals, and they got it, although I am learning over time to get the job first, and then tell the truth.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2004, 10:33:53 AM »
Please excuse my ignorance, but what do RFP and RFQ stand for?

Yes, I find it amusing that they think big time tournaments are held over 27 different holes.... ::)

Minor note:  Harbottle just had one of his designs announced to be a USGA site for 2005.  BanBury near Boise, ID will host the U.S. Junior Girls then.  Big whoop?  Michelle Wie should be there....

It's not a bad course despite being flat, in a river plain, and around a housing development.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2004, 10:36:31 AM by Scott_Burroughs »

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2004, 10:49:19 AM »

Scott,

     RFP = Request For Proposal

     RFQ = Request For Quotation

     An RFP tends to be for bigger projects like golf courses, enterprise wide computing solutions etc. and RFQ is usually for commodity items like I want 5000 10 foot ethernet cables.




Michael Dugger

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Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2004, 12:02:11 PM »
After looking at the aerial photo from the link, can someone more familiar with the land tell me what is so great about it?

I just don't see it.  

It looks like an island in the middle of a shipyard?  Is there any native or is it one big pile of silt and rock?
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

yogi_barry

Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2004, 02:21:05 PM »
RFQ = Request for QUALIFICATION

Frequently an RFQ is less about the "proposal" for the specific project, and more about the "qualifications" of the team considered to work on the project.


W.H. Cosgrove

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Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2004, 02:21:33 PM »
Next time all of you architects are in town, I'll take you on a tour of the nearest private to the proposed property.  Its across the Creek less than two miles as the crow flies.  

The piece of property is an industrial site but is ina pretty nice bedroom community.  Great views of the Olympic Mtns.  The property has a nice low bank waterfront on Puget Sound.  Weather is not destination type for about 8 months a year.  The remeining 4 months a year are as nice as any on the planet.  

Tom, I don't get that this is destination stuff for Seattle.  Do you really think that the Golf Market is that big in Seattle.  Do you think that tourists are going to drive 45-50 miles insome of the worlds worst traffic to get to this site or will they decide to take the ferry ride to Bremerton and play Golf Mountain.  If you are still convinced, I need to buy some more Real estate.  Next time you are in town give, drop me a line and I'll give you the tour.

By the way Sumner Meadows was given a reprieve by the city yesterday.
http://www.tribnet.com/news/local/story/4704029p-4655033c.html
« Last Edit: February 04, 2004, 02:22:42 PM by Cos »

yogi_barry

Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2004, 02:51:24 PM »
Cos,

Which nearby private are you referring to...?

I agree that the golf market in the Seattle area is not that deep - and further believe that this site is arguably beyond the fringes of the "Seattle Market".  I used to live in the Seattle area (eastside) and think that golf growth could be sustained in that direction, but not necessarily south.

Because of the weather, Seattle is not an ideal golf destination more than 3-4 months a year, although it can be played nearly year-round.  I think if a CLEARLY superior project is created, it may succeed by virtue of its quality - but not because of pent up demand...

Steve

Peter_Herreid

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Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2004, 03:45:05 PM »
As a Seattle-area resident, I can tell you that everything one needed to know about the state of golf up here is eloquently summarized in Cos' Reply#8--well said!

Nearly every single ambitious/high-end public and private project that has come on board up here in the last 6-8 years has struggled mightily to find its place in the current market, and there have been quite a few!

There are memberships available at fine private clubs all across the region, and CCFAD's often have shocking levels of low maintenance--I'm not talking brown grass, leading to "firm and fast", which would be great--I'm talking brown mud, leading to more mud, leading to run-off and no grass, etc...

This area suffers from the two worst possible problems that will forever prevent it from ever being a "destination"--unbearable traffic (just about every highway association study every year shows that it is second only to LA in  productivity hours lost to traffic) and unpredictable weather (which is not such a big issue when you live here, but I think is a huge issue when you're trying to plan an extended golf trip!).

It is tantalizing to think of the possibilities when you look at the Puget Sound, Mount Rainier, the San Juan Islands, the Hood Canal and all the natural beauty in the area--but whoever makes an ambitious golf prject work up here has to have two things--deep pockets and a lot of patience--two things I just don't think a municipality can be expected to have...

Peter



« Last Edit: February 04, 2004, 03:45:45 PM by Peter_Herreid »

ddavid426

Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2004, 06:17:29 PM »
I would agree with everything said about the Seattle market with the exception of stating that all high end private projects are struggling.  I think the Members Club at Aldarra doesn't fit that description.  While it doesn't boast a 5 year waiting list yet, it is doing just fine from all reports while the others are in real trouble.  It's success might have something to do with being a golf only club, pretty much all walking and no housing.  It is also a very good Fazio design.  Maybe the projects having trouble are missing the market.

Peter_Herreid

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Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2004, 06:33:49 PM »
Ddavid426--

Notice I wrote "nearly", and I did that very consciously. I would agree that Aldarra is an exception (perhaps THE exception), and precisely for the reasons you noted...

If I remember correctly, that project went through a process of narrowing in on an architect and defining the scope of the membership and goals of the club, well PRIOR to being built and opening.

This seems to be a stark contrast to many other recent projects here, which can't figure out which part of the market they're trying to get--the Microsoft families, the young execs, the multi-sport athlete types, the U of Washington alums, the retirees, etc--and thus have had trouble building a loyal base...

Aldarra seems to have had its goals much better defined, and I think the things you mentioned are a big, big part of that.  I would suspect that it should remain insulated from the rest of the Seattle picture...

And I agree, it is a very good course that I can well imagine the members enjoy playing regularly.  It requires, or at least can reward, some creative shot-making in ways that I'm not sure the bowling alley effect of Sahalee can...

Peter

ddavid426

Re:Hot Property in Washington State
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2004, 12:38:30 PM »
Well said, sounds like knowing your market and sticking to your principles is a sound strategy.  I agree that the others don't seem to know what they are.  Too much money chasing other money and falling short.  That's the story of Seattle in a nutshell, and not just around golf.