Does a bunker need to be better maintained than this?

[Mike_Cirba]

[RJ_Daley]

IN my opinion, yes...

[Michael Dugger]

In my opinion, no!

[Jeff_Mingay]

Looks like Rod Whitman's Wolf Creek, Mike. I like it a lot. It's a hazard, and it looks natural. I can live with that type of bunker maintenace, sure.

Where is that?

[THuckaby2]

the key here is the word "ever".  I don't like absolutes in golf... So add me to the yes list.  I believe I would like some bunkers that are more sand than vegetation.  But if most were this way, that would be just fine with me.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Jeff,

Maidstone, I believe, based on the bunker work talk at Maidstone in the other thread (actually, I know it's Maidstone after doing a little homework).

[SPDB]

Mike,
i think it depends. With close proximity to the water, and a nice sandy base, probably not. On the other hand, if the bunker is elsewhere without the above attributes, I don't know...off the top of my head, maybe in suburban philly, the answer would probably be no.

Again, it all depends.

[John Gosselin]

Depends on the course and on the clientele.


Would this style of bunker fit on just any course?

To answer your question, NO. But realisticaly how many golfers would appreciate that bunker or that look?

[THuckaby2]

Damn you Mike, there you go and remove the one word on which I based my ever-so-logical point.  

But you win by me in doing this... my answer is now NO.  No bunker really does need to be better maintained than this one.  I figure some will be though, so that keeps my stand against absolutes intact...  

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Mike,

The answer is no.  Resolve to make a local rule that the club can be grounded in all bunkers (hazards?) and I see no problem with this bunker.  However, it is the owner that must believe as well.  That like everything else will require patience and education.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Huckaby;

Oops..sorry about that.  But you made a good point and I don't think that the word "ever" needed to be in my question.

Sean;

Suburban Philly?  I seem to remember bunkers that looked very similar in the neighborhood just a few years back.  

[tonyt]

Not usually.

The golfer has no right to expect anything when in a bunker. Bunkers today are as menacing and as unfair as a child eating cotton candy compared to the days of yore.

[RJ_Daley]

I'll tell you my ideas why I think it needs cleaning up, if you tell me yours, why it doesn't need better maintenace...

I think I'd like to see that bush in the middle to right edge in the picture taken out.  I don't think thick shrubbery that yields an unplayable lie at greenside within hazards (unplayable hazard within a playable hazard) ought to be in the maintenance meld.  If you want it vegitative, then I would rather see a whispy native grass island that extracts a stroke or less if you hit it well and extracate yourself, but not certain penalty of an unplayable lie or lost ball within it.  I don't mind if it goes unraked, with a little courtesy of the last player in it, smoothing his damage over with shoe sweeps. I'd like to see the turf transition from bunker to upslope into the green a bit more defined including cleaning out the capes and sharpening the edge on the tongue.  The far end of the bunker in the pic ought to be cleaned out a little further back into the native with more sand bunker, and the native kept as wispy as possible.  If this is Maidenstone, then from other pictures posted recently there seems to be a great disparity in the level of maintenance and presentation various bunkers receive.  

All of this wouldn't lead me to not like the course.  Lack of interesting angles of approach and contours on green related to those angles, and fairway variety are far more important. Just, a bit of critique about the overall maintenance meld theme as seen in this picture, if you will.

[SPDB]

Yes. You have my answer.    

[A_Clay_Man]

I agrree that most golfers would hate this. But that only shows what they know. I would 'get off' on extracating myself from the nastiest parts.

[RJ_Daley]

tonyt, when are you going to know you are IN the bunker?

In the above pic, I think there is such a wide transition and imperceptable deliniation, that one might have to go with KBMs idea of calling it all waste area like at TOC at Kiawah and you can ground you club anywhere.  Yet, there are pics of other bunkers on the course that have clear enough deliniation of where the bunker ends and turf begins.  

KBM, what do you think about the thick bush in the middle of the bunker?

[tonyt]

Fair call. So call it a waste area wherever the lines are too grey and I'll be happy.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

RJ Daley,

I think the shrub is acceptable, in small doses.  It just can not be fun to hit into that shrub, because there is no chance for a recovery shot.  I like allowing recovery shots because the player must make judgements about how aggressive or conservative to be on the recovery, and make these decisions in a semi-flustered state, which requires poise.

Along the lines of keeping the bunkers rustic, what effect is there on a player's ability to extract themselves from the bunker grounding vs. not grounding the club?  Is bunker play appreciably better if you ground the club? If not, why the rule, why not do away with it to give a clear, simple solution to those whom wish to mix their bunkers between more clean edged, and more rustic on the same course.

[TEPaul]

That's the big cavernous bunker to the right of Maidstone's #9 (perhaps my favorite hole in the world)! It's taken about 107 years to get looking like that and if anyone on here suggests it needs to be maintained better I'll hunt them down and deal with them very harshly!

It may be hard from that photo to catch the scale on that thing but the sand floor is perhaps 15 feet or more below the green surface. That bunker bleeds beautifully out into the sandy scrub area and into the dunes to the right and it's perhaps one of the most strategic greenside bunkers in the world.

When you're hitting an approach shot up into the wonderful high green pretty much your last thought before contact is "Please God don't let my ball go into that monster on the right", and a good amount of time it does!

'Deal with you harshly' is probably too mild a term--anyone who seriously suggests maintaining that bunker better will be dogmeat!

[Brian_Gracely]

I'd vote "no".  This is like a combined sandy-waste area/gorse/bunker.   Leaving it like this would probably keep maintenance cost, and hence greens fees, down.

[Rick Shefchik]

I don't like the transition area in the lower right -- looks neither fish nor fowl to me. But the rest of it looks fine. Call it a waste area or a bunker; I'd be happy to play it either way.

[RJ_Daley]

KBM, I think that grounding ones club in a bunker (sand) give one a much better judgement of the consistency of the sand, how much of a bounce and how open to play the blade, and a better feel for the angle of the descending blast.  Texture of what is under the ball, consistency of the sand, and so forth above stated is a big advantage over not being able to ground it.  

But hey, I want to live one more golf season.  Please let me offer a compromise so that this blood lusting Paul character doesn't show up at my door.  How about then accepting the local rule of grounding the club, and replace the bush with native grasses?  And, if you play with TEP, wear a bullet proof vest.

BTW Tom, do you ground your club there or not?  If not, when would you feel it is OK to ground the club in context with the photo?  i.e. if the ball or club through the swing 'might' even touching one blade of vegitation?

[Joel_Stewart]

My answer is Yes, if you don't maintain the bunker eventually it won't be a bunker.

Either you maintain it now or rebuild it later?  

[gookin]

I don't think a bunker has to be maintained better than that, but should a course choose to have crisp edges and no grass growing in the bunkers that is not wrong either. We recently redid our bunkers with very steep grass faces down to the floor of each bunker in classic Raynor style. To let these bunkers go "unmaintained" would have defeated our purpose. The look must be consistent and integrated with the architectural integrity of your course. The look of your photo would not have worked for us.

[TEPaul]

RJ;

When would I feel it's OK to ground my club in or around that bunker? Probably never. I just never do ground my club when I'm in sand areas at Maidstone. Generally not grounding your  club is the least of your concerns in some of the sand areas out there! I guess I'd have to say that Maidstone is for those you like old style golf in most every way. For those who don't like that type of golf they should probably not bother to go out there and play the place.

Matt Ward thinks the place is overrated with a bunch of weak holes. He probably thinks the undefined sand areas are unfair too. Let him think that--it sure doesn't matter to Maidstone and those that like that kind of golf!