ANGC 8th green

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

As I stood in the rain a mere 10 feet from the gate to enter the golf course at ANGC monday morning, the fine line between being there and being there became very clear to me. Yes I was in Augusta Georgia. Yes I was on the grounds of the ANGC. But no I was not on the golf course. The fense and hedge separated me from a place much like TOC or Cypress Pointe or even Pebble. But you can see them. No fense keeps you from seeing heaven there.There were not enough anti-depressants in the purses of the women(30 to 50) in the whole state of Georgia to bring the 35,000 men back from the depths of dispair of not making those final fateful steps onto the course. To hell with a bunch of Iraqies and Bushies. It is Masters Week. Tuesday was another day Scarlett. The course opened and all is normal in the world again. As I walked and viewed the course, the 8th green jumped out as the one place the course and the land did not seem in harmony. There are 3 mounds on each side of the green framing it. The area of the course did not have ripples or any feature that could have lended itself to such mounds that grow in size from front to back equally on each side of the green. Is the recent work or have I missed this all these years.

[Jim_Kennedy]

From the Master's website.

Brief History:
The mounds surrounding No. 8 green were removed in 1956 to improve sight lines for spectators. Byron Nelson supervised their restoration in 1979.

[ChipOat]

The mounds were part of the original MacKenzie/Jones design.  Clifford Roberts had them removed sometime after WWII because they obstructed the "patrons" viewing pleasure.  Although I don't remember whether it was Roberts or one of his successor Chairmen (Hardin or Stephens), the decision was made that the mounds should be replaced.  Missing the green left or right is now no longer the (alleged)non-event that it was perceived to be when the mounds were not there.

This was done between 10 and 25 years ago but I can't get any closer than that.

[BCrosby]

The foregoing responses sound about right.

Byron Nelson is the only person to have done work at ANGC who attempted to restore a feature of the course to the MacK original. His work on #8 is exemplary. And, unfortunately, one of a kind at ANGC.

In the 1950's the green was almost perfectly circular with a matching circular bunker. Almost like a Raynor Short Hole green. Don't know who did it, but talk about looking out of place...

Bob

[jim_lewis]

The mounds were replaced right after Cliff Roberts' death.  The good news is the green complex is like the original. The bad news is that few players attempt to go for the green in two anymore, especially when the pin is back left, as it always is on Sunday.  Most players play well right on their second shot, even as far right as the 9th fairway.  Frankly, the hole has lost much of it's excitement. There is little reward for reaching the front of the green in two as a two-putt is no sure thing.  The risk is pulling a fairway wood left of the greenside mounds into the trees and shrubbery and making a bogey or worse. I watch less play on that hole than I did 25-plus years ago.

Jim Lewis

[BCrosby]

Jim -

I think #8 is a terrific. Second best par 5 on the course.

- Tee ball has to negotiate a center right fairway bunker to open right side of green.

- Mounds greenside left force a second shot approach to be precisely hit. As is appropriate when playing a second into a par 5. Better yet, a miss to the left is not an automatic penalty/water ball. Recoveries are possible. And fascinating to watch.

- If approached from the right/correct side, there is a ground option into the green.

- Wonderfully complex putting surface. Up and downs from around the green are difficult to say the least. Even a long two putt is a much better bet, justifying the risks inherent in trying to reach the green with your second.

Unlike #13, viewing all this can be hard on #8 because of the severe slope to the fairway. It's hard to find a spot where you can see all of that going on.

But a wonderful hole.

Bob

[Tyler Kearns]

If what is there today looks out of place, trust me, pictures from the non-mound era depict an ugly greensite. If memory serves me correctly, the green was circular, looked much flatter and appeared to be raised on a 12"-18" plinth. Any surrounding contours did not tie into the green slopes, thus no unity existed. There was the green and its surrounds, they did not blend into a coherent and appealing unit.

Tyler Kearns

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

well thank you guys. i am looking forward to studying this.

[B_Spann]

Here's the straight "poop" on ANGC #8 Green.  

While I was working for Joe Finger in the summer of 1978 in between semesters at LSU, the Club approached Byron Nelson with regard to his recollections of the original 8th green, as the Club wanted his involvement in restoring the green to its original form.  It seems that Mr. Roberts had decided to relocate the original green for spectator purposes, which Bob Jones vehemently disagreed with.  He was even more vehement when the reconstructed green turned out to be as TKearns described previously.  (When I first saw that green in person, it really jumped out to me as the single green at Augusta which definitely did not belong out there - a uniform plane of a putting surface with two shallow, flat bunkers on either side.)  After Mr. Roberts death, the Club soon decided to restore the original green as they believed Mr. Jones would have wished, though shifted slightly to the left to allow the required spectator space between No. 8 green and No. 9 tee.

Mr. Nelson told the Club he worked with Joe Finger, and that he would need to use him as an architectural consultant if they wanted his (Nelson's) involvement.  The Club agreed and sent us copies of the original Mackenzie green drawing and the topographic survey of the current existing green.  We then made a few attempts to translate the Mackenzie sketches into contour plans which could be staked, constructed, and fit into the space available.  After I returned to school for the fall semester, Ken Dye completed the construction plans and built a detailed scale model at 1" = 10' for the Club to approve.  The peaks of the mounds actually were softened slightly from the original design for mowing considerations.  After the 1979 Masters, construction began with Joe, Byron, and Ken very closely involved on site with supervision of the contouring.  

That is pretty much the story as best as I recall, and again, in my opinion the "restored" version of the green is vastly superior to the interim replacement green which was there previously, and Mr. Nelson felt that it was as close to the original as he could get it.

Hope that helps!

[Keith Williams]

Thanks Baxter.

The inside info is great... and welcome to the group.  An
architect's perspective is always helpful and appreciated
on this site.  Hope to hear more from you here  

Keith.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Thanks Baxter and I hope to see you soon. John

[BCrosby]

Baxter -

Great post. The historical background you gave is what makes this site worth visiting. Please continue to contribute.

You were fortunate to have been involved in the only restoration of a MacKenzie feature at ANGC. I hope other restorations are to come, but I'm not holding my breath.

Bob

[Derek_Duncan]

A little late, but here's a look from behind.