Grounds for Golf II

[THuckaby2]

Lou:

I can dig that, using the vernacular of late in here.  

Just riddle me this:  isn't the blindness on 10 damn near as "bad" as the blindness on 1?  On 10, any strong player is gonna try and take it over the hill on the left to some extent.  Even weaker players from up tees will do so also... I just think that if avoiding blindness on one's opening shot is the issue - and I think that is a good goal - you don't achieve much switching the nines.

I also don't like a longish par 3 for a 2nd hole, for pace of play reasons.  Make #11 into #2 and you're asking for backups...

I do concur with building to a crescendo, I just don't see how that is done better by switching the nines either... the current 17 and 18 are every bit as dramatic as the current 8 and 9... and given this seems to be a wash, the issues above trump things, for me.

But it's close... let's just say if they did switch the nines, I wouldn't say it would hurt things.  I just don't think there's enough gain to do so, that's all.

And this does help one understand the course more, huh?  Fun exercise.

TH

[Craig Van Egmond]

I'll give this mystic color thing a try.

Here is the other par 3 at Black Mesa.

[Craig Van Egmond]

That was fun...

#4



#8



#11

[THuckaby2]

Craig - those are fantastic pics - thanks!

Damn fine set of par 3s, methinks.  I think my preference goes:

4
11
15
8

But re-order them any way and you won't get much argument from me...

TH

[Lou_Duran]

Nice picture, Craig.  Now if the hole only played and looked as good as it photographed!  Was anyone able to hold the ball on the plateau on the left side of the green?  It looks fairly flat from the picture, but anything hit to that side funneled wildly to the right.  Personally, I an not skilled enough to hook-punch a shot to the lower right side and skip it up as I believe my hero, Matt Ward, once suggested.

Huck,

I've come around and actually am beginning to like a little bit of blindness and quirk in my golf, but not as the primary theme of the course.   BM #1 is a better #10, in my opinion, for the reasons stated and that by that time in the round, one should already be completely loose, physically as well as mentally, and into the flow of the course.  The hole is just too quirky for my eye, specially when the muscles are so tight and my level of confidence is so low to start the round.  While N. Berwick is not a real good example because many of the holes, including #1, are just plain weird/unusual, I thought that "Perfection" fell in a very good place in the round.  Personally, unless the club uses #s 1 and 10 as starting holes with an overlap tee-sheet system, I don't have trouble with #10 being a par-3 or a hole that's rather unique.

If the current #11 is a longish par-3 at 150 to 175 yards for you, an equipment and/or ball upgrade might be in order.  Into a quartering wind, I think I punched a 5 over the green from the backs, and hit a normal 7 pin high right from the second set of tees.  The current #4 is at least one or two clubs longer, with the wind possibly having a bigger impact.

Obviously, your point of view is the predominant, otherwise Pat and the owners would flip the nines around.  I didn't notice any advantages from a logistics standpoint.  However, perhaps if the waterfall was flowing, it would be less jarring if the encounter was much later in the round  .

[THuckaby2]

Lou:

That waterfall is the one great OUCH of the place.  Man I was busting up laughing when I saw that.  

I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree re the rest.  The plain and simple truth for me is I find #10 to be damn near as blind as #1... and re the current #11, it's 175 uphill to a huge degree!  That's a 3iron for me, my friend.  I'd hit 5 from 150.  No surprise you are two clubs longer than me though, everyone is.    But the point is that it's certainly a "longish" par 3 for the large portion of this great golf world, and even if you discount the distance, there's a lot of bad places to miss, and the green is very tough... all leading to major back-up potential.

Thus I don't see the benefit in switching the nines.  I really think the pluses and minuses equal out to a wash.  

I also kinda dig #1 as it is - to me it's unique and fun.  The world has far too many "gentle introductions."  

TH

ps - North Berwick has no choice!

[A_Clay_Man]

Ok boys here's some new info, which may sway the preferences. The tribe missed out a deal with a large chain store because they didn't have the infrastructure in place. Inorder to make sure that does not happen again, they are currently grading,for future construction, which will someday be one huge eyesore on the golf course. (ok,assuming they just go with some standard construction) This inevitable irritant will be visable from holes 6 and 7.

Would/should an eyesore be better off early in the round?

Lou- I still don't agree with your analysis, but part of me may be resisting just because you acknowledge in your critique that these are your own preferences, based on your own game. Please don't read that to be critical or meanspirited. It is not. How else is someone suppose to comment on things, but subjectively, right?

I just see that the 17th, with it's fortress green, and the demands on the 18th tee, are marvelous accentuation to what has been a thrilling ride. Plus, the 14th is way to good to pull out early in the arsenal.

[Lou_Duran]

Adam,

To each his own.  Actually my thoughts about flipping the nines probably has less to do with my game than that of the average golfer who is neither straight nor long.  Next time I play BM, I'll make sure that I am not among the first groups off, and have plenty of time to warm-up.  I'll then hit 3 irons off the back tees on 1, 2, and 4, and my second on 3.

Subject to site opportunities and limitations, I just like a starting hole that doesn't reqiuire the concentration of the last moves of a chess match, that's not real tight, and that encourages pulling out a driver.  I prefer that the next few holes gradually build in difficulty and stricter demands, and establish a consistent theme which is carried throughout the course.  Starting on #10 in my opinion accomplishes this better.

I just think that #1 is a very odd hole, specially as the start and introduction to the course.  I like #17 a lot, but it would work as #8 just as well.  #9 in my opinion is a stronger, better hole than #18.  I also think that it is better to have the two most difficult par 3s later in the round, and I think that they currently play in the following order: (difficult to easier): #4, 8, 15, and 11.      

[Steve Lang]

 

My $0.02 ..

I found #1 at BM over the hill no more challenging than say having to hit through the V at #1 at Tobacco Road, or at any number of courses I've played, hitting over with a pond in front of the first tee.  

I found # 2-4 much greater challenges early in the round than I would otherwise expect, but not the second time I played them, and I will, as Lou mentions, make sure there's adequate warmup the next time..  Local knowledge goes a long way at BM, obviously..

# 10 would certainly be a nice opener, but I think that the back stretch of holes is more appropriate for the finishing of a round and for competition sake, where execution in the midst of all the visuals is paramount.  Like finally seein Black Mesa from the 12th tee..  

I liked #9 and hit over some traps on the left side of the fairway safely first time, and while it is more difficult than #18, it doesn't have the view that draws me into thinking, let's go again, I have some unfinished business!    

# 8 reminds me of a hole at Dunmasglas in MI  #8 or 9 i think, just replace the mountains with mich sand hills

[A_Clay_Man]

Lou- My thoughts have focused on your statement that you'd prefer to ease into the round with less demanding shots on the begining holes. I thougt of SFGC and how it's second is the #1 hndcp hole. I recall reading about NGLA's start as being a real ball buster.

Breaking the rules of a cohesive design, seems to be a doable art, but the designer gambles on whether he/she has broken the rules in the right spot and at the right time. i.e. Mac's trees on 17 and 18 at CPC.

Baxter admitted to the fear of being laughed off the planet with the blind opener. So far he seems to have avoided the slings and arrows of the disappointed. Also, BM offers a course unlike any seen here or most anywhere. I think there's no better place, to announce one's intentions of being a different experience, than the first tee.

The wind-up for BM is that it is not as difficult as it seems. So, it must be that subconscience intimidation, that enters the golfer's  mind, which makes them feel uncomfortable. I have to think that alone, makes BM and Baxter's design unique and great.

The comfort zone of "down the middle" has made golfers EXPECTATIONS too low, for the better part of the century. They want it easy, and it's already easy, so they want it easier. Baxter gives them easy, but with the deception of a magician.

Lou- I do bellieve a return visit is called for.

[Lou_Duran]

Apparently, I am in an underwhelming minority of one!

To the extent that the site lends itself to that, my ideal routing allows a player some leeway early on; provides the opportunity to build momentum through conquering progressively different and more demanding callenges in the middle; and, finally, offers a crescendo of variety, difficulty, and risk/reward opportunities in its last several holes.  Few sites lend themselves to this approach, and the movement in gca to have near equal returning nines and 18 signature holes ensure its rarity.

There are many courses where you have to be on your toes starting on the first hole.  Off the top of my head, OSU's Scarlet and Muirfield Village have two very difficult starting holes.  However, at both courses, these holes fit very well within the overall theme.  #1 at BM is one of a kind, and, in my opinion, just like the waterfall, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

I disagree about SFGC and any parallel that can be drawn to BM.  The first three holes, regardless what the handicap on the scorecard might say, allow you to get off to a good start without the fear of a couple Xs on the card.  Typically, if the wind is blowing into you on # 1 (from the ocean) , it is not a hard three-shot par 5, and #2 is then a mid to short par 4.  If the wind blows from the east, #1 is reachable, #2 plays mid-long, and #3 plays short.  #4, the long par 3 going south, well, that's another matter.

BTW, I find nothing easy at all about BM, particularly since in addition to all the elevation changes, turns and twists, moon-like terrain, and potential for extreme weather, it has about the most difficult greens I've ever played.

You are 100% right that a return visit is in order.  Maybe in late summer/early fall?  TTRC (36), Paa-ko Ridge(18), Twin Warriors(18), BM (36)?    

[THuckaby2]

Lou:

I can dig everything you say, the current 1-4 is a tough start.

But what I still can't get past is this:

why is 10-13 so much easier?

Man, they are a wash to me...

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Lou- Obviously our experiences were totaly different. It is probably related to our different abilities or styles of attacking the game. I shoulda known they would be diametrically opposed when you reach #3 in two. That is really a game I am unfamiliar with.
 i.e. On my virgin trek, my second (after a decent drive) on the third hole, was a real butt puckerer. Yet you call it an almost "no brainer" lay-up.

 When was the last time you golfed the white tees? or didn't try for the heroic shot?

[Steve Lang]

 

Huck,

10-13..

#10 hit it let it roll, downhill approach

#11 straight away up hill, just don't spray it too far off line

#12 my fave.. mash it downhill, hit it up hill

#13 I watched Doug and Ran tear it up with shear muscle over the hazards and one putt, ms sheila and I took more tradition 3 shot route, two putts,

i think its like our Palmer Course General Nine.. easier, but more possibilities for high scores when you take chances.   That's why I like it as back nine.    

[THuckaby2]

Steve:

I can buy all that.  Just contrast it to this:

1 - sure it's an odd tee shot over the hill, but any halfway decent tee shot leaves you 125 max in, a lot less for big hitters...

2 - iron off the tee if one is fearful, but even then not too tough to get to 150... green is a brute, wonderful false front... but is this TOO HARD???

3 - great par 5, tough as nails, for sure tougher than 13... but again, is it THAT BAD???

4 - par 3 pretty damn equivalent to 11.

So that's my take here... where is the huge difference?  See, you might call 10 just hit it and watch it roll, but damn one wants to get as close to that green as one can, thus hitting over the left is pretty hard NOT to do... Thus I don't see a difference at all between 1 and 10...

TH

[Lou_Duran]

Tom,

#10 may not be an easier par than #1, but it seemed much more comfortable from the tee, and, if my information about the prevailing winds is correct, will normally play shorter than the yardage suggests.  The green did blow my mind (lagging from the far back right to a front right cup placement).  And if the wind is coming strong from the SW, I am sure that Pat will set the tees a bit shorter.  A harder par but easier bogey?  Does this make sense or should I just paste it in shivas's most stupid comments thread?

#11 is a far easier 3 than #4.  Though I couldn't tell the difference in the picture and couldn't remember the greeside bunkers, I recall my shots there very well, including the chips to the interesting, challenging but not over-the-top green.  

#12 is the only hole on the course where I hit fairways and greens during both rounds (D,W from the back in the a.m.; D, SW from the second tees in the p.m.).  The tee shot just seemed more comfortable.

#13 is reachable downwind (a higher % of the time, I think), and less difficult than #3 on the approach shots.  Into the wind, with tight muscles, #3 can be a bear of the tee, on the lay-up, and the approach.

I do like the risk/reward opportunities of #s 14 and 16, which while being less demanding than #s 5 and 6, are full of interest and quirk.  I think that they might be better earlier in the round (if they flipped the nines), but I don't have a problem where they are now.

It is fun playing armchair architect.  The money, however, is not real good.

         

[Lou_Duran]

Guys,

I just don't remember #11 being that much uphill?  Aren't the tees also somewhat elevated?  You can see that the green site was excavated.  Maybe a half to a club uphill at most?

[THuckaby2]

Lou:

Hmmm... I think we need a bigger sample size.  After two playings I still find no discernible difference in difficulty between 1-4 and 10-13.  I think 10 is a tougher hole than 1 by a good margin, but maybe that's because I relish blind shots rather than fear them.  I don't find 2 to be any tougher than 12.. in fact I think the opposite - the approach into 12 going up that hill, with the green blind, is always gonna be tougher in my mind than the approach into 2... Lou, is blindess bad on 1 but OK on 12?  I don't get it.  You also can't see much of the green on 11, and being that it's so much more uphill than 3, those work out to be a wash also.... no way is 11 "far easier" than 3 - I just don't but that.  Both have death on all sides, and if anything 11 is a tougher green with some SEVERE contour back to front... ask Brad Swanson...

Yep, we need a bigger sample size.  I just don't see it.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Come back to New Mexico. What's old is what's new.

ROAD TRIP

And this time Pussy, you have to not only make it to Farmington, but Monticello, too.

[THuckaby2]

Good lord would I love that, Adam.  But can they stand such pussiness at those places?

 

[Lou_Duran]

Huck,

Okay, I agree.  You are a pussy!  Comparing the type and degree of blindness of #1 to #12 or #11 does call your judgement into question.

I also agree with you that a sample size of two is insufficient.  Do you think that I can use that argument with the powers-that-be at my favorite course?

But who in their right mind would believe that #11 is harder than #4?  Or #2 easier than #12?  Are you sure that you are not evaluating the course solely on the basis of how it suits your game?

BTW, I do like #16, as badly as I played the hole.  Put it in the front side, and I think that more people would play it agressively (to build momentum, with enough holes left to overcome a tragedy).

Nuzzo and/or Baxter S.- what say you?
 

[THuckaby2]

I am a pussy, but I do believe I am in my right mind, and I am not basing this on my game, but on the many shots I witnessed that glorious day.  You'll notice I haven't once mentioned how I played any of the holes, though someone else sure has.  

To me, the blindness issue exists on each of 1, possibly 2, for sure 10, 11, 12.  Yes, 1 has it in the greatest degree... but not so much more than 10 as to make the switch worth it - that's the point.  This is even MORE evident if the wind is as you say - given any wind at all, a play over the hill on 10 is the ONLY play - and that's a blind shot, damn near as blind as #1.

And yes, I find #11 to be every bit as difficult as #4.  Perhaps I am insane.  But they play basically the same distance (given the severe uphill of 11) and 11 green is far tougher than 4.  They are both hard holes, and maybe I am wrong, maybe 4 is harder.  I just witnessed quite a few good shots into 4, and only one into 11, and on that one, the sad misfortune was to 3 putt from 15 feet.

And yes, I also find 2 easier than 12.  12 is always going to be a longer approach shot unless one takes a LOT of risk and makes a very heroic carry over the left bunker.. and even then, the approach is blind into a very deep, tiered green, making it VERY hard to judge.  2 is a tough hole also, but can be played with an iron off the tee to 150, followed by a flat, completely visible shot.  Yes the front face complicates things, but not enough to make it harder than 12.

So you see we disagree, obviously!

And I still haven't mentioned a single shot of mine, btw, though I believe others can attest about certain exploits on the oh-so-fearful, play it cautiously so it doesn't ruin my round, please move it to the front nine so I have time to catch up #16.