Where am I...

« **Reply #25 on:** January 22, 2004, 06:09:28 PM »

Martin,Still can't read some of them.

From the ones I did read, in the descriptionof the course, it sounded as if #1 wasn't too different from exists there today. Am I not reading this correctly?

« **Reply #26 on:** January 22, 2004, 06:32:56 PM »

Panhandle Bill,
The golf course is Alister MacKenzie's Pitreavie GC in Pitreavie, Fife, "Scot-lin".

I was fortunate enough to scedule all of about two hours to see the course on my way out of Scotland, just before jumping on the rail to North Yorkshire in 1996.

When seeing the course in person, at first you don't see much MacKenzie in it, because its so evolved and dated, and frankly, not enough TLC to its lineage, but what would one suspect for a public golf course in Scotland? Is it ground breaking golf architecture? No, but it is similar in the same cause as a coure your familiar with in the Valley Club because it doesn't have to be. It's just simply a wonderful tour with challenging golf holes, albeit ones that wouldn't attract 90% of the golfers that post on Golf Club Atlas these days.

I for one would agree with all Brian and Martin are adding here because if in the right hands it could be a really cool little place. One I would rather see then one of the faux modern day pieces of crap they are building in and near St. Andrews, because personally, thats just my tastes. It's also a great place to study really EARLY Dr. MacKenzie, and realize how much is lost in the translation of time from the original design intent, as well as how much he progressed as a designer in just a few years later. In fact, I hope that Martin and Brian would agree with that.

That green is sort of a Biarritz but not nearly as severe, as well as it falls away in back. There are all sorts of interesting features to the property, and from memory one of them was a double-forced carry on one shot, down hill to a hogsbacked fairway that provided another interesting thrill in the fact that it looked like the fairway fell off of both sides, when in actuality it opened up quite a bit when you got down there! You see, you can't wreck stuff like that unless you completely reroute the hole out of existence, and that's a good thing!

« **Reply #27 on:** January 22, 2004, 06:37:19 PM »

I also want to credit Rich Goodale who has an equal interest in Pitreavie as I do, and when a course like this can attract two different people of different cloth's so-to-speak, It shows just how good the original design might have been in a Rustic Canyon kind of way, simply because of the golf, and that to me is a good thing!

« **Reply #28 on:** January 22, 2004, 11:06:39 PM »

Tommy, thanks for the rundown on Pitreavie. How far from St Andrews? If we don't survive the ballot in May, Pitreavie could be a great alternative.

BTW, looking forward to meeting you in person at KP III!

« **Reply #29 on:** January 23, 2004, 12:28:22 AM »

In case you couldn't figure out my weird clue (it's been awhile since ATOD clue-giving), I was guessing Blairgowie in Scotland. Rosemont course, to be exact. That's what an internet search for MacKenzie in Scotland got me.

« **Reply #30 on:** January 23, 2004, 03:08:44 AM »

Panhandle Bill,
If it was me, and I missed the ballot, I would probably take another round at Lundin, Leven or Crail, or Montifieth or Panmure then revert to Pitreavie, its that obscure. It would be like going taking Ocean Dunes over Pacific or Bandon, if you get my meaning. Still, there is nothing wrong with broadening the horizons so-to-speak because Pitreavie is like a soul in the vast Scottish heart. Totally public--you won't see a single tourist, and the company is almost a guarantee to be good.

Scott, I saw Blairgowie and there is nothing left of MacKenzie there. It is a VERY hilly course.

« **Reply #31 on:** January 23, 2004, 05:38:03 AM »

Naccarata-san

I only share an interest with you in Pitreavie--not the unconditional love that you seem to assume.

As you know, but others may not, I have lived 10 miles from Pitreavie for most of the past 15 years, and play it fairly regularly, in Team and Open competitions. Last time was their 36-hole one day Open in June 2003.

Before coming onto GCA and seeing one of your posts, I had absolutely no idea it was a MacKenzie course, and neither did anybody I had ever played with there, including members! In this part of West Fife in which I live it is thought of as just one of the "OK, but nothing to write home about" courses, of which there are many. Visitors from the States might call them "hidden gems" but we would just call them good places for the golfing equivalent of a "slap and a tickle."

Yes, there is some good stuff at Pitreavie, but so is there at Canmore and Pittfearane and Aberdour and Burntisland and Kinghorn and Balwearie and Dunnikier and Balbirnie and Thornton and even Lochgelly. If somebody discovered that the great Dr. was involved at any one of those places you could find and post pictures that would have the MacKenziephiles overcome with rapture, too......

PS--Pitreaviee is not a muni, it is a private course, adn as I have posted on here before, YOU (i.e. anybody, including me) could have joined the club this summer for no entrance fee and about $400/year in subscriptions.

Martin

Great stuff

From what I know, the only significant changes to the MacKenzie routing you posted are at the 1st/18th end of the course and at what is now the 15th hole. As to the latter, MacK describes it (as the 14th) as a 430 yard hole. It is now about 380. There must have been a tee back in the woods/housing development which would also have brought some of the obviously now obsolete old hazards in the fairway into play off the tee. It is a good hole now (superb fallaway green) that would have been great as the Dr. designed it--assuming he did as I reckon. The 1st is now a 470 yard "par" 4 brute with the last 100 yards striaght uphill, and the 18th a mundane flat left to right banana "par" 5 hole to a contrived two-level green under the clubhouse. I have stated on this forum before that I thought it was the worst hole that MacKenzie ever designed. I was WRONG!

If I read the documents you posted correctly, what is now the 18th was MacKenzie's 17th and 340 yerds rather than 510. It would have been a gentle right to left dog leg to a green set somewhere into a hill which rises to the right of the (now) 18th fairway. From that green you would then walk back to a tee which sits at about where a pushed drive on 18 would land, and whre there exists, even today, a "ghost" fairway which allows one an alternative route to today's 18th green. However, in MacK's plan, this fairway must have then led to a green which sat in the hollow in front of what is now the 1st tee. This explains why the 1st is listed in MacK's plan as 380, when it is now 470.

PS--the guy I played with in the 36-holer this year hit #1 with driver-8 iron. I busted a drive and came up short with a pretty good 4-iron. Sic transit gloria Goodale.

Bill McB

If you and your bro want to play Pitreavie in May, let me know. I'll even pick you up at the train station! It's not as "good" as the New or Elie or Lundy, etc., but how many chances does one have to play a pretty much original MacKenzie for $30-40?

« **Reply #32 on:** January 23, 2004, 05:54:58 AM »

Rich/Tommy,
Here's the routing from the Scorecard.

I think you'll agree that much of MacK's genius here was to spot the tree-covered knoll in the top left and exploit the Hell out of it!! Three tee and green complexes artfully squeezed into that tiny corner would be scoffed at in today's safety-concious design environment, but, by God how IT WORKS!! - GENIUS!

The use of the two/three teeny burns is also worthy of note. The routing uses them for something like 12 holes, crossing, diagonal, off the Tee, near the Green - GENIUS!

Two returning loops of Nine - GENIUS!

And as for the 12th - CLEARLY proto-Augusta - GENIUS!

Alister MacKenzie - GENIUS!

FBD.

« **Reply #33 on:** January 23, 2004, 06:30:55 AM »

Martin

Very much agree that the wee corner where 3,6 and 13 greens are located is something special. Also special is being able to rout the course to get in and out of there, seemingly seamlessly!

As for the 12th, a fine hole but I don't see #12 Augusta there (not that I've played ANGC, but I have played the hole at Tour 18!). My theory-and it is a fine one, if I do say so myself--is that #12 Pitreavie is the model for the original #16 at ANGC. Look at the old pictures and tell me what you think.

Vis a vis "GENIUS", etc. etc.--why is Pitreavie held in such medicore esteem by those who play it regularly? Are they/we all dullards, or are the MacKheads smoking their own exhaust?

« **Reply #34 on:** January 23, 2004, 07:19:32 AM »

et voila! - AUGREAVIE!

FBD.

« **Reply #35 on:** January 23, 2004, 07:37:43 AM »

Martin,

Is that Photoshop or is Powerpoint? You have flipped the picture haven't you? I remember landing in the stream on a rock and bouncing onto the green edge...didn't make par though.

Rich,

All of us that studied at Edinburgh that played the course all felt that the 12th here was the model for the 12th at ANGC. As well as the next hole being a model for the 13th.

Brian

« **Reply #36 on:** January 23, 2004, 08:09:44 AM »

Brian

I'm just guessing, but I see too many differences between 12 ANGC and 12 Pitreavie, particularly:

--flat vs. downhill
--significant front hazard vs. flimsy little creek (yes, I know that Raes Creeks was widnened into a pond)
--back hazards (sand and flower bushes) vs. backboard (long shots at Pitreavie #12 will gather back onto the green)

Also, visually, the hole looks more like the old 16th from the pictures/drawings I have seen).

As for 13, at Pitreavie, of course, it is a 360 yard hole vs a 490 yard hole at ANGC, and there is no real danger of going left (unles you hit it short and hooky). Sure, if you wimp out right to the top of the hill you have a harder shot, but its a 6-iron off turf and not a Faldoesque 2 off of pine needles. The green while great in its own right, is very different too--long and thin vs. short and wide.

Other than those minor differences, I agree with your Professors!

« **Reply #37 on:** January 23, 2004, 08:23:28 AM »

Rich,

I totally agree with your points but I think you are missing our points...

When we say model we don't mean exact copies, we mean that the holes may have been used (in his memory) to help create the holes at ANGC. I think Martin's pic. helps explain what I mean.

As for the next hole. The second shot at Pitreavie is similar to how the 13th plays. If you hit a good drive that catches the hill to give you run then it is very similar to the 13th. If you go to high you end up on the top also similar to Greg Norman's shot the year he lost to Faldo.

Yes, I know there are no pine needles but where is your imagination...?

One of the guys I played with drove the hole...

Brian

« **Reply #38 on:** January 23, 2004, 08:35:33 AM »

Brian

I think I do see what you (and your Profs) were getting at.

I don't mean "exact copies" either, but I do think that there is a difference between a true template and just a soupcon of similarity. When I stand on the 13th tee at Pitreavie, I am not at all thinkng about any sort of risk-reward, other than making sure that my shot to the left (ideal driving line) is judged properly (i.e. hitting the right club to travel ~220 yards, giving me a flat 150 or so to the green, from the proper angle). This is HUGELY different from trying to hit a hooking 3-wood 270 or so around a very sharp corner, with a "death by immesion" creek to the left and then having to hit a side hill 6-iron across a chasm to a thin green. Non?

As for the 12ths, I still think that the old 16th at ANGC looks more like Pitreavie than the current 12th. Perhaps the fact that the former n'existe plus is confusing us.......

« **Reply #39 on:** January 23, 2004, 08:55:12 AM »

B,
The picture is indeed flipped - to more accurately reflect the Augusta 12 angle of approach. Photoshop - naturellement!!!

I can definitely see what Rich is getting at though - especially from the Medal Tee. Remember how it was over to the right of the Daily tee making the tee shot much more 'along' the line of the burn/creek.

I haven't been able to find a pre-ponding shot of Augusta 16 but looking at the plan in WAOG does reveal the similarities of line...

FBD.

« **Reply #40 on:** January 23, 2004, 09:06:15 AM »

FBD and B

Surely the picture of 12 Pitreavie (#4 on the initial post) is NOT flipped. Or, maybe, I am just a stupid......

« **Reply #41 on:** January 23, 2004, 09:12:45 AM »

R,
Original NOT flipped - AUGREAVIE is tho'!

M.

« **Reply #42 on:** January 23, 2004, 09:27:04 AM »

M

"AUGREAVIE" #12 is not only flipped, you have flippin' airbrushed in bunkers that are not there! Why not also airbursh in a flippin" pond and level the tilt of the green and lower it while you're at it? Maybe even add in some flippin' Greg Norman brand Magnolias! And make sure that the temperature is always 77 degree fahrenheit, like it is in Georgia in April?

Let's get a picture of the old 16 at ANGC (Bob Crosby/John MacMillan posted one a while back, I think) and argue fom fact rather than fantsay!

« **Reply #43 on:** January 23, 2004, 10:31:25 AM »

I hand the chance to play there and I too enjoyed a few of the holes for their design merit. The use of the creek is wonderful and the greens in that corner of the property have wonderful movement.

The first hole is a bit extreme as well as one that runs above the first on the highest point. The finishing holes were less desireable but I like the interior part of the routing near the serpentine creek.

« **Reply #44 on:** January 23, 2004, 11:16:26 AM »

These pictures are courtesy of John Macmillans version of Augusta National before the changes for the game Jack Nicklaus. I hope you don't mind John.

The 16th before the changes

The 12th before any changes..

Cheers

Brian

« **Reply #45 on:** January 23, 2004, 11:28:57 AM »

...and the 13th...

Bp

« **Reply #46 on:** January 23, 2004, 11:53:26 AM »

Just a few pics to help show the similarities w/ Pitreavie. Some pics of ANGC with her make-up off and rollers in her hair and whiskers in her chins!HA

« **Reply #47 on:** January 23, 2004, 11:54:47 AM »

Are you sure that isn't Pitreavie...?

« **Reply #48 on:** January 23, 2004, 01:05:17 PM »

According to MacKeznzie the old 16th at ANGC was modeled after the 7th at Stoke Poges. The 13th ANGC was based loosely upon the 17th Cypress Point (and the Lido hole).

« **Reply #49 on:** January 23, 2004, 01:20:15 PM »

Great thread. Here's the original 16th at ANGC, as requested.

I'll leave the debate to those who have been to Pitreavie.

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