Nicklaus Evolution

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Good article by Craig Dolch in the Palm Beach Post about Jack's evolution as an architect:

www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/auto/epaper/editions/wednesday/sports_04d0ffdfa54c00ec00d6.html

[JohnV]

Good article and a happy 64th birthday to Jack.

I haven't played a lot of his courses, but I'm about 50-50 on the ones I have.  Some I like a lot and some I wasn't very excited about.  My favorite of the few I've played is the TPC at Snoqualamie Ridge.  A good mix of holes over some fairly tough ground.  There are a couple of short par 4s that had some interesting choices off the tee.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

I agree that Jack has taken a different tack on a number of his more recent designs.

The one that comes immediately to mind is my most recent visit to the new Outlaw Course -- at Desert Mountain. Jack clearly is making strides away from the demanding penal nature of his earliest works. At Desert Mountain you can see the contrasts fairly dramatically because the design process extends itself from the original layouts such as Cochise, Renegade and Geronimo to more recent designs with Chirichua and now Outlaw.

Jack has added playability without compromising demand. On Outlaw he has provided for various "angles of attack" that were clearly limited on much earlier designs. I'll be in Hawaii next week and look forward to playing another new design he created for Lyle Anderson called Hokuli'a and will opine on what he has done there as well.

[Bob_Huntley]

Did anyone play Morningside C.C. in Rancho Mirage in its earliest incarnation? I thought it had some of the weirdest carries for an ordinary golfer imagineable. A good drive on a reasonable line would find the ball in a hollow with an abundance of rough.

I always thought the highlight of the round was using the recessed rest rooms with their 'gold' faucets.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I have only played a few of Nicklaus' courses:
PGA West Resort
LaPaloma
Desert Mountain Geronimo & Renegade
Cabo del Sol Ocean
Nevillewood
Melrose

I remember reading a few years ago that Jack said he would never again build a resort course as difficult as LaPolama in Tucson(mid 80s)-slope 151 from tips,141 from members tees. I welcome the opportunity to play the "kindler and gentler" new courses.

Steve

[Adam_Messix]

I am surprised that the article did not mention that one of the first courses to open under the Nicklaus banner is right there in Palm Beach County, Mayacoo Lakes.  It is a shame that the only thing people remember about the original course is that is was tight with wall-to-wall melaleuca trees.  What everyone seemed to miss were the neat low-profile green complexes with interesting internal green contouring, something that is missing from Nicklaus designs today.  Unfortunately, the greens were redone in 1988 and were replaced with mid-1980s vintage Nicklaus greens, elevated, relatively flat, and surrounded by deep bunkers.  Doak is right about one thing at Mayacoo, visibility is poor, especially off the tee.  

I will be interested in seeing what he does at Bear Lakes.....

[Matt_Ward]

Adam M:

The only way one can play Mayacoo Lakes is with a certified signed machete! Talk about areas that can't be penetrated!

Jack is moving into another direction from his earlier work but I guess some people will continue to brow beat him with some of the earlier designs.

A good number today are clearly far removed from what he is doing not too long ago.

[Brian Phillips]

When Jack brought out his book on design, I was one of the first on here to scoff at it and not take it seriously because of one large mistake in the book.

Jeff B. got me to read it again and I have to say it is a really good easy book to read about design and his thoughts. I would recommend it to anyone who is interested in the way he used to think and the way he is designing now.

Brian

[Jeff_Mingay]

If I recall correctly, there's a section in Jack's book titled "Great Holes", or something like that. I was pretty excited to go through this section, to see and read about which holes throughout the world Jack admired, only to be disappointed with what amounted to a promotion of his own work.

I'd like to see Jack redo that section of his book and pick holes from courses besides his own designs that he admires and explain why. That'd be a good read.

[Adam_Messix]

Matt W--

Don't need a machete to play Mayacoo anymore.  The club has taken most of the trees out believe it or not and now you can actually see around a lot of the place.  Although when I first saw the place many years ago, I felt like I was playing in a tunnel.

[TEPaul]

I don't really know much of anything about Nicklaus courses other than a few. We played a few Florida Internationals at one or two of his courses--Bear Lakes, North or South or something like that--in West Palm Beach or North Palm Beach. But that was way before I got interested in golf architecture and I didn't notice much of anything except to try my best to score. I think one of those two courses might have had an enormous double green #18.

But my question is--come on, over the years who was it who really did most of the design work for Jack? I sure don't see and never heard that Jack spent much time on any of his course designs other than to show up from time to time and order massive changes or whatever probably to the consternation of owners, crews, contractors, whomever.

Who were the guys who really did most of the design work for Jack and where are they now? I know what Desmond Muirhead did and where he is now so don't mention him.

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

You asked me to be a bit more specific on another thread and I have to hold you to the same standard with your latest post regarding Jack Nicklaus.

I can verify through a range of sources that on a number of the more current sites Jack has been a steady visitor to the more prominent designs in which his name is attached. You ask what has he done. Simple. He's provided his input -- that's why they pay him the big bucks.

The Outlaw layout featured a number of visits by Jack and I believe the finished product is extremely well done. Ditto Cimmaron Hills in Austin, to name another.

C'mon Tom -- let's be a bit more homework oriented. Lobbing bombs from a veeeeeeeeeeeeeery limited sampling of courses is not your style.

P.S. If you want to say Jack does so little visits I'm sure the same thing can be said of a good many people in the field. Especially the more prominent names.

[TEPaul]

Matt:

What do you mean lobbing bombs at Nicklaus? I'm not lobbying bombs at all. I just said he didn't seem to me to be the type of architect who seemed to spend much time on sites. But maybe he does more of it now that he doesn't play much. Maybe he spends a lot of time in his office at the drawing board, I don't know. I just asked who it is who really does Jack's actual design work. Are you saying Jack sits there, in his office or on site and actually works the detailed hole designs out of his head the way some architects like Coore or Doak or Hanse and some others do? Not that that's necessary for Nicklaus but he doesn't seem the type to do things like that. Does anyone think any of Nicklaus's courses consist of 18 holes that were conceptually created by him.

I'm just asking.

[JWL]

TEPaul

I am a bit reluctant to jump into this discussion, primarily because I have always told myself that I would not post anything that could be construed as defending Jack.   And with that in mind, I am not going to defend or promote any particular Nicklaus designs.
I would like to briefly address your question about whether anyone truly believes that any of Jack's courses consist of 18 holes that were conceptually created by him.
To answer that question, let me just say that after working closely with Jack for 20 years, I can say that on the courses that I have worked with him, that he has conceptually sketched every hole from tee to green and every green complex while on site.   My experience is that Jack takes direct and active responsiblity for everything that is above the ground, i.e. bunkers, mounds, hollows, and the shape, depth and elevation of each.  Another misconception about   Jack is that he  "waves his arms" and spend the clients $$$ to fit his own whims.   The truth is that Jack gives a full explanation to the owner or owner's on-site representative for any modifications that he would like to make to the course's progress.   He doesn't demand anything, and will find another course of action if the owner is uncomfortable with Jack's idea.   This often happens several times during site visits.  Jack is also always looking for ways to hold cost "down" while still creating a golf course that meets the owner's expectations.
OK, I have probably said more than I should, but I do like to straighten out misconceptions of Jack when they present themselves.
I hope this give some of your  a little better idea of how Jack "works" a project.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jim Lipe:

You haven't said "more than you should". The site benefits from the willingness of folks like yourself to participate.

Thanks very much.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jim,

I agree with Tim. Enjoyed your post above.

I can't imagaine info. about the way Jack works is top secret, is it? You're in a position to type what you wrote above. Good on you for taking the time to do so.

Bring Jack next time!

[TEPaul]

"OK, I have probably said more than I should, but I do like to straighten out misconceptions of Jack when they present themselves.
I hope this give some of your  a little better idea of how Jack "works" a project."

Jim Lipe:

Of course you haven't said too much and thank you very much for what you did say. I'm sure it probably clears up many misconceptions of what Jack Nicklaus did and does on many facets of his courses and their designs.

I only ever heard about Jack Nicklaus and the type of fellow he is in this way in a very general sense some decades ago from a venture capitalist (bigtime) who was involved with Nicklaus in some way on a golf project in New York way back then. All he said is it was remarkable to him that Nicklaus was such a curious and extremely bright man who (in those days anyway) asked a ton of questions of everyone and was extraordinarily curious and informed about all kinds of things that he was involved in at the time. Don't forget, of course, that this was way back when Nicklaus was the King of the World in competitive golf and obviously couldn't devote the amount of time he might now to golf architecture.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I think we can all agree on one thing and it is positive.  Today's Nicklaus designs are far superior to his early work.  And if he continues to evolve, it will probably be toward better designed courses.  This will be good for golf.

[Dan Herrmann]

When I was in school, we'd always try to make the 90 minute trek up to Glen Abbey in Oakville, ON.

After playing pretty poor munis in Buffalo, Glen Abbey was the holy grail of golf to us, and we always loved playing it.  

If I remember right, the home of the RCGA is right at Glen Abbey.

I still like the 11th hole with its elevation change.  

[Lou_Duran]

Which is Nicklaus's best course?  Arguably, Muirfield Village?  And very early in his design career.  Yes it has been modified repeatedly, and Muirhead was involved in it (is his contribution to MV any greater than Nicklaus's to Harbour Town?).  Other than making his courses generally easier for the members, has Nicklaus radically changed his approach?  At Sunset, Cimarron Hills, Carlton Woods, SouthShore, I haven't really seen it.

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

I think your eyes must be getting old. Jack has done a number of things that combo the playability while still providing for a solid challenge. Unfortunately, so much of his earlier work (by himself) not with Muirhead (Muirfield Village) or Pete (Harbour Town) really accentuated the aerial game and a fair number are simply one-dimensional. As I said if one ventured to the courses at Desert Mountain you can easily see this with the earliest designs (Cochise, Renegade, Geronimo) when contrasted with more recent layouts like Chirichua and especially Outlaw.

If I had to mention a few of his more recent layouts in no particular order that highlight the "new" Nicklaus I would offer the following:

Ocean Hammock, Palm Coast, FL
Mayacama, San Jose, CA
Cimarron Hills, Austin, TX
Outlaw at Desert Mountain, Scottsdale, AZ
Chirichua at Desert Mountain, Scottsdale, AZ
Great Bear, Marshalls Creek, PA
TPC at Snoqualmie Ridge, Snoqualmie, WA

I just hope Nicklaus moves away from the replica or theme courses you see with Bear's Best in Vegas and a similar venture in the Atlanta area.

[Mike_Trenham]

I worked as a consultant to a portion of the Nicklaus organization for 3 months a few years back.  From my friendly conversations with people in the design side of the business and some who had worked for jack for 20 + years, I came to the conculsion that what we view as "evolution" in his design philosophy is also reflection that the lead "ghost" designer for the signiture courses has changed a number of times over the last 20 years.   Honestly I can not remember the names of these individuals and when they worked for GBI but they have gone into practice on their own.  At that time I could easily identify distinct similaries in the construction of features like bunkers and greens to these men's individual efforts to those during their time with Jack.  Again, I am not saying Jack has not been a very important part of the evolution in his design philosophy but part of what we see is just the cycling through of different designers within his organization.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike T:

Are you saying that Jack has been more a creature of the work from others than from his own sense that a serious change was necessary?

I have always been led to believe that Jack clearly understood a number of his earlier designs were just not being received so well or at least as well as he had hoped.

In simple terms -- what can first the chicken (those who worked for Jack) or the egg (Jack's own desire to mend his design emphasis)?

[Mike_Trenham]

Matt W:

Take Jay Morrish who worked with Jack durring a period when he built his most high profile modern designs, Morrish's courses I have seen look more similar to that era of Nicklaus signiture designs than to those from the past 10 years.  One of the things I focus on when looking at a course is the construction of the features like bunkers and green pads.  The nature of these features for Nicklaus changed with the people in his design group.  This is not the case for Palmer who has worked with Ed Seay for his entire design career.

[ian]

Jack is a much better architect than he was in the past

Just look at Ocean Hammock and how dramatically different it is than Muirfield, Glen Abbey and nearly any other earlier Nicklaus job I have seen.

Just look at all the options and design elements he has brought into this design.
(sorry but these are from photos, so the quality is poor)

1st- wide open and inviting lots of room


2nd- risk reward tee shot with the option to go right or left of the central bunker at the green


3rd - short four, hit it left your blind, right and you have a good view


4th - short three where you have lots of chipping options around the green


6th - island green, only hole I hated, no options


8th - I player Seminole within two days of this is as enjoyable a hole as the 13th at Seminole (which is one of the finest I have played)


The great 9th, A view of the ocean from the tee, the hole plays through a natural valley, wonderful setting!
If you can find fault with this hole, then you just don't like Nicklaus.


The shot into a wonderful raised green with great contour. All the greens had really good contours.


The short par five 10th has alternate routes for the secongd shot, bust it long for a wide open pitch, or lay-up and hit an iron to a shallow green with deep bunkers.


Short nearly driveable par 4 11th. Notice the bunker in the centre of the fairway in the lay-up landing area. This creates a tough decision. Flaw of the hole is the hidden water in front of the green. Lots of chipping around the green site.


The 14th has alternate routes, the dangerous go for the green right of the central bunker; or the long route left.


The green matches this with the direct right route, or the left route which brings the single greenside bunker into play. Fall aways around this green too.


The 15th features a skyline green on top of the coastal dune and no bunkers, just chipping area.


Short par 4 16th has a narrow fairway and a narrower green with dramatic run-offs at the side, very tough for a short hole


Everyone has seen this photo, the 17th. Personally I thought it was nice but not near as good as the 8th


The tough long 18th, tee shot down into the valley


And a wonderful shot from the valley to the raised green surrounded by chipping areas


It has all the elements that people praise about courses they like, just in a Nichlaus looking package. This is a damn good golf course. If you call it typical Nicklaus, your underating the course.

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