[Scott_Burroughs]

Gentlemen
Perhaps we should rate the Doaksterpieces ,with some critical input from the man himself ....I would be most interested to hear opinions on the US courses and how they rate

Pete,

Doak once gave ratings (Doak-scale, obviously) to all of his designs through Pacific Dunes, but it surprisingly went under the radar and no one commented on it.  Granted, he's a little biased, but it was nice to see such candor.  Fazio claims to have designed "100 Top 20 courses" or something to that effect (maybe it wasn't him attributed to that comment, I could be wrong).  Does that mean he'd give them all 9's?

Recapping, these were Doak's personal ratings of his desgins, in chronological order:

High Pointe - 7
Heathland - 6
Black Forest -6
Stonewall I - 8
Charlotte GL - 4
Quail Crossing - 5
Beechtree - 6
Lost Dunes - 8
Riverfront - 7
Apache Stronghold - 8
Atlantic City CC - 6
Village Club - 5
Pacific Dunes - 10

Since he posted this, two more courses have opened, Stonewall (North) and Cape Kidnappers (was to open Jan 1, IIRC).

I've played 4 of them: Heathland, Beechtree, Pacific Dunes, and Stonewall I.  IMHO, I'd say he's about right on Heathland and PD, but underrated Beechtree and (gasp!) overrated Stonewall I a little.


Tom,

Is this too soon to rate Stonewall (North) and CK?

[Mike Benham]

Scott -

Don't forget the TT - Rawls Course !

Mike

Ps:  Just had to correct you after you "clarified" the Pacific Dunes winter pricing for me yesterday

[Mike_Sweeney]

Scott,

I would agree with flipping around Stonewall I (5 1/2) and Beechtree (7), IMHO. I know that people will say that the greens and surrounds at Stonewall were better, but Beechtree would be a great home course to play at. My memorability was much higher at Beechtree after just one round, and my partner who rarely comments on courses called me on the cell phone on our separate rides back. I also thought that the bunkering at Stonewall did not have the "look" that I expected of seeing my first Doak course. However, the 18th at Stonewall is a great great hole. Great finish.

[Steve Lang]

 

I only partially understand Highpointe being a 7 versus BlackForest at a 6..  We've taken both in every summer for quite a while and I have more unfinished business at BlackForest and feel it is a stronger test than Highpointe. But that's just me i guess.

I think there's some first effort pride in Highpointe factored in and perhaps some learning curve issues on the others being displayed in TD's self ratings.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Scott -

Don't forget the TT - Rawls Course !

D'oh!    

Of course!


Steve,

Doak has a love for High Pointe that isn't what it once was due to the club's grassing and overwatering issues (or something like that) that go against the course's intent for use of the ground game.  I don't know if the 7 applies to the current course or to what it originally was.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm not in a mood to post Doak-scale ratings of my most recent courses.  To rate my own courses, I need to get some distance on them first ... when you build them you're naturally excited about the possibilities, and it's harder to see how they have actually turned out.

To spooky:  I don't have any idea what you mean by Cape Kidnappers not "cutting the cheese."  (That expression has nothing to do with golf architecture in its American usage!)  That's one place you have to see for yourself.

To Mike, Scott, or anyone else who gave Stonewall a 5 1/2:  may I humbly suggest that the course must have kicked your ass.  Try, try again.

The consensus view of my best work in the U.S., according to GOLFWEEK (since they are the only magazine to go so low with their rankings ), is as follows:  Pacific Dunes, then Lost Dunes, Stonewall I, Apache Stronghold [before it was held back by its conditioning], and Beechtree, I think.  My own rankings are pretty similar.  I'm pretty sure that when the dust settles, both Australian projects AND Cape Kidnappers will be in my personal top six.  For a couple of years, anyway.

Last but not least:  I only know of three people who have hit it around Cape Kidnappers and Barnbougle, besides myself.  Big Pete might be biased in his rankings because he has money in one of them.
 

[Mike_Sweeney]

To Mike, Scott, or anyone else who gave Stonewall a 5 1/2:  may I humbly suggest that the course must have kicked your ass.  Try, try again.

 

Valid point as I did not play great that day, but I am comfortable with Beechtree (maybe a 7.5 for me) ahead of Stonewall I in the Mike Sweeney version of Confidential Guide. I also can't put it above Huntingdon Valley, which I loved, but I think you had HV too low at a 6, at least a 7 in my book.

Good problems to have !!

[Scott_Burroughs]

I didn't say I gave Stonewall I a 5 1/2.  I just said it wasn't an 8 IMO.  

And I wouldn't say the course kicked my ass.  I would say I did, by losing all ability to hit a decent shot from the fairway of #3 through #11.  On these 9 holes I lost 7 balls by hitting every type of bad shot possible.  The other 9 holes I was 2 over.  But that didn't affect my view of the course.  I liked #8 a lot, despite losing 2 balls there.

I actually found the greens to be on the tame side, for what I was expecting from a Doak course that I thought didn't have the directive to keep the greens "mild".  Maybe it was playing Inniscrone 2 days earlier, which are already very sloping greens, but the fact that they were stimping 13-14 (cut so short, the dirt was visible), making them almost unplayable.

[spooky]

To spooky:  I don't have any idea what you mean by Cape Kidnappers not "cutting the cheese."  (That expression has nothing to do with golf architecture in its American usage!)  That's one place you have to see for yourself.
 

Fair enough.  Probably a comment made out of ignorance (I'm not the designer type) and a reflection simply of what I have heard about these places.  I had read and heard so much about Barnbougle that I was compelled to see it a couple of months ago with my wife.  Whereas the noise about Cape Kidnappers, and St Andrews Beach is more muted.  

Hopefully one day I can play all of these great courses, and perhaps I should wait until then to pass comment..

Anyway to see Barnbougle in person was such a treat, and I can't wait to get down there later this year..

[spooky]

Cutting the cheese is junior high school vernacular for colonic methane gas release in a silent, covert manner, BTW.

  That is seriously funny.  I can understand Tom being even more miffed with that meaning..

[Big Pete]

Scott and Tom
Thanks for your feedback on the US courses - that is exactly the input I was looking for - sounds like Lost Dunes , Stonewall , Apache Stronghold and Beechtree are must plays for future trips around the globe .

Spooky , yep I got to play Pacific a couple of times just after it opened . Regarding Cape Kidnappers not cutting the dairy product - forget the fact that the site is blindingly spectacular , don't even think about how the design has molded green complexes so they look like god put them there. Forget the fact that this really should not be golf country - what will get you is the overwhelming urgency to play the next shot - you just look foward to each one . I reckon that's a pretty good indication of how the cheddar will be divided .

Tom ,you are of course correct in that my ratings are somewhat tainted by my involvement , no matter how well meaning - I guess I won't be able to give an unbiased view for some time either!!!But without having seen all the rest , they just have to be in the top few .

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom,
What did you think about the article in "Travel and Leisure Golf" this month?  

How many architects get a full page color photo?

[Mark_Huxford]

Tom,
Looks like CK might host the NZ Open next year. Boy are people ever looking it in the mouth though.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2789020a1823,00.html

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2788658a1823,00.html

[Tom_Doak]

Mark,

Notice how there is no discussion really about whether the course is a good test of golf for the pros ... or whether the alternative locations are any better.  [In fact, one article pretty much says that this year's site was a poor test of golf.]  The decision will be based on the sponsors and the money.

If it's going to take a million dollars to get the tournament, though, I'm pretty sure Julian will not go for it.

Julian's point from the beginning is that it would be much better for New Zealand as a whole (NZ golf, NZ tourism) to have the tournament beamed back to the USA from a beautiful new course than the typical course they play in Auckland.  (On last year's telecast, you got to see a bunch of power lines along one boundary.)  However, the people who put on the NZ Open are the New Zealand Golf Association and IMG, and neither of them has any vested interest in promoting golf tourism in New Zealand ... corporate tents are all that matter to them.

[Jay Carstens]

Tom Doak,
Sorry to get off topic a little here and away from the ratings game, but are you still planning a course in Castle Rock?  I seem to remember reading something last year.  I only ask because my folks plays at Plum Creek.  
Please say yes.  
Jay  

[Dan Herrmann]

IMG, and neither of them has any vested interest in promoting golf tourism in New Zealand ... corporate tents are all that matter to them.

IMG - You need say no more  

[Mark_Huxford]

It was interesting to hear the chap mention the Tiger Woods debacle because it looks like the ramifications of that event are going to effect the Open for a long time to come. With the golf association's reluctance to hand over control to anyone ever again, the tournament will remain a small time affair with poor dates at a tin pot course (Titirangi excluded) in Auckland. The on again off again subject of appearance fees appear to be another problem for the NZGA. Everyone who was paid in 02 wanted to know why they weren't being paid in 03. No doubt Mr. Robertson would want to bring some good players out.

To me the only thing that matters about a pro tournament in the end is how memorable it was. I can't see how they're getting kids hooked on golf by taking the event to the Grange. What they are doing is turning people off. There's no doubt Cape Kidnappers would provide the stage for some real drama as well as provide the ancillary benefits you spoke of Tom, but as Pete Dye said though, Tours aren't interested in all that other stuff and would probably hold an event in a car park if someone put up enough money!

[Joe Hancock]

Tom,
Looks like CK might host the NZ Open next year. Boy are people ever looking it in the mouth though.

Mark,

Do the initials "CK" stand for "Cheese Kutters"?

Joe

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