Where would they be ranked today ?

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:  I think all of the courses you named would be highly ranked with or without lengthening.  Shinnecock was in GOLF DIGEST's top ten back in the 1970's, before they added the length or thought about having an Open.

Winged Foot West would probably be about as high as Winged Foot East is today.

I'm not sure, though, whether the difference would be due to having added length or having hosted the US Open.  I'm betting their top 20 status is based more on the latter than on the former.

In fact, you might make the case that if these bellweather courses had resisted the pressure to lengthen their courses, it's just possible the governing bodies would have tried harder to maintain the status quo on equipment, the whole escalation of length would never have happened, and they would still be top 20 courses at 6500 yards.

But, I could be wrong.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
So many questions, but so few answers...what gives?

I think most of your questions were answered on one of the mothers of all Rees threads... http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=128
...but I could be wrong.

Good luck exploring the truth at Baltusrol.

I'd like to retract my post to John Kavanaugh...I ignorantly responded to him as if he were a serious student of golf architecture.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Interesting thought.

When did the significant lengthening of golf courses first take place in preparation for a US OPEN, such that it set the stage for the lengthening of all future courses in preparation for US OPENS ?

[JakaB]

I got into this when TommyW said one of the Jones boys destroyed the integrity of Baltusrol Lower....Can any of you serious students of architecture tell me if Tillies work is still integral to Baltusrol as it stands today...if the answer is yes..which of course it is....how does something remain integral and lack integrity.

[T_MacWood]

John
None of us serious students will dare answer your question...you are the expert, having researched the evolution...what do you think?

[larry_munger]

JakaB, there is even more work going on at Balty today, narrowing fairways, new rough, new tees on 4, 5 and 17(650 yards). New bunkers on 11, 13* and 18. Eighteen is the hole with the greatest change, the turbo kick hill has been removed and the right side of the fairway has been bunkered. BL might be a ok to good test for the pro's but it isn't a FUN golf course. The best features are the 5th green complex, the 3rd shot on 17 to another good complex and the 14th green complex. Play the Upper!

[TEPaul]

As far as Shinnecock is concerned that's one we've studied very carefully as to its design to accomodate future length. We've been over this with all Flynn's original plans and with the club recently with his original plans. There's little doubt in our minds that "elasticity" was quite carefully planned into Shinnecock on various holes by Flynn when he designed the course.

[Jeff Goldman]

Pat, you stated that WFW has had Mr. Fazio doing bunker work, and that the raising of footpads is inconstistent with pre-existing bunkers.  Could you explain a little fuller what you mean and how the newer bunkers differ?  How does the new work look/play differently than the old stuff?  ps.  loved the quiet reference to visibility (also loved Tom Doak's confirmation of what I said about the US Open being a catalyst to lengthening/rankings).

Jeff Goldman

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Goldman,

I didn't care for the new bunker work on the right side of # 5, I thought that while it certainly came into play, it seemed designed for visibility as it's first priority.  It had a different look and feel to it versus the fairway bunkers on the rest of the golf course, even the similar bunker on the left in the drive zone on # 6.

Likewise, I didn't like the extension work on the right side fairway bunker in the drive zone on # 12.

But, these are just my observations.
Tommy Naccarato loved the FAZIO bunker work,
So, I guess it's an individual's perspective or preference.
And, mine is that there's a slight break in continuity.

I've been playing Winged Foot for 40 + years and love the golf courses and the club, but, if I had my druthers, I think I might have employed a softer touch on the bunkers.

[Jeff Goldman]

Pat, thanks.  I've never seen WFW except on TV, so I appreciate the specifics.

Jeff Goldman

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

"what I said about the US Open being a catalyst to lengthening/rankings)."

I don't doubt that for the UNINFORMED who exist that it means a great deal TO THEM that a major was needed to validate the standing of a course.

I said this before -- the ignorance of raters should rise beyond this notion. The inherent qualities of the courses Pat originally listed were there for those to see -- those who actually bothered to visit in the first place.

The ignorance level of many (outside the NY metro area) regarding Bethpage (post '02 Open) simpy astounds me. Now plenty of people have simply jumped on the bandwagon.

[tonyt]

Regardless of WFW's challenging green complexes, give the PGA Tour guys 10-11 wedges per day and they'll shoot low even if the hole locations are hidden under bunker lips.

WFW does have great green complexes to reduce it's dependancy on length in comparison to some other courses. But at it's original length, the toughening which would have to have been done to it to blow out the scores today would surely be difficult to achieve whilst retaining Tilly's happiness and ideals.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TonyT,

I agree with you, challenging greens can only be challenging in the context of the intended approach shot.

If a green was designed to present a challenge for an incoming 3-iron, and it is now being approached by wedges, the degree of challenge is substantially reduced, if not eliminated.

When Tiger Woods won his first masters, wasn't the statistic on his approaches that he never used more than a 7-iron on any par 4, and thus could easily get to hole locations that were exceedingly difficult to get close to for those using longer irons

Didn't Davis Love III hit a 486 yard drive last week ?

[Top100Guru]

Hey Mucci, what exactly is a "Weekday membership" at Garden City?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Top100Guru,

Hey top100guru, You're a self proclaimed GURU, you should know the answer.

[Top100Guru]

Are you too embarassed to explain what "a weekday membership" is here for all to see........I know what a "Full-time" membership at Garden City is.......I just wanted everyone at GCA to know, especially the members here that "you" often times "be-little and insult" with your "wit-less comments" that "you", are not living as "high-on-the-hog" as you make it appear.........I personally, will continue to "feret-out" and embarass any and all of those "GCA Elite-ists types" that continually take foundless jabs at other fellow GCA Members, granted, some of the posters here deserve it, but most in fact, are simple folks, guys that are just trying to learn more about golf course architecture, and they deserve the benefit of the doubt, especially when it comes to treatment from the "Longtime GCA Guys", such as yourself, Doak, and other obvious choices, these new GCA folks do not deserve to be disrespected, they need to be handled with "kid-gloves" and be educated, not humiliated!!!!!!!

All I ask is:
 
Be a nice guy and educate those GCA folks who are new and yearn to learn more about the game, and blast those that are idiots and deserve to be ridiculed.....

[HamiltonBHearst]

Top 100 guru-

Why do you come here and attack Mr. Mucci?  What difference does it make what type of membership he has?  All I know is that he is a well respected member at two clubs that I am familiar with and perhaps more.  Maybe it would be nice if you would post under your real name also.

[Jeff Goldman]

Yardages according to the 1926 The Links:

NGLA  6163
Garden City  6417
Merion  6515
Pine Valley  6446
Oakmont  6707
The Country Club  6350

Pine Valley might hold close to its rating because there wouldn't be a US Open there to get it toasted.  Maybe NGLA for the same reason, though it would be really short.  As for the others....

Jeff Goldman