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grandwazo

Waterville - Fazio
« on: January 20, 2004, 09:49:41 AM »
The second phase of work is underway at Waterville.  Here's a link to pictures of the work in progress.

http://www.watervillehouse.com/pages/frameset_home.cfm

I know that Fazio is not the favorite of many GCA'ers but personally I have enjoyed his work finding his courses to be very playable, pleasing to the eye and always very well maintained which in my limited opinion means the architect has given the superindentent something that was built properly the first time and easily maintained.   The first Fazio courses I remember playing were the Vintage courses in Palm Desert and right through Waterville which I played this past summer, I can't remember a Fazio course I did not enjoy playing.  In  a previous thread I had mentioned that one of the things I enjoyed about playing Waterville this summer was the fact that it did not have "Fazio" stamped on it and it was one of my favorites from the trip.  Some people have commented on the fact that the grasses used were not the ones originally found on the course and that may be a valid complaint up to a point, but I felt the character and strength of this great piece of property was protected and if anything enhanced by Fazio's work.  This new work looks like more of the same.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2004, 10:09:00 AM »
I am one of those people. I did play a Fazio redo in Houston this weekend. It is the 2nd course at champions called Jack Rabbit. He did a great job of taking a course  already built in a housing setting and putting a lot of movement and character into a flat piece of ground. He did it in a manner to make interesting golf holes. He  always seems like an artist to move your eye down the hole and not into the houses nearby. I was very impressed with his work here.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2004, 11:06:18 AM »
Tiger;

Has Tom Fazio done work at Jackrabbit in recent years?

I always thought that was a George Fazio course built in the 60s?

All;

I would encourage you to go to the Waterville link that Grandwazo posted, http://www.watervillehouse.com/pages/frameset_home.cfm and then look under the "Fazio Project".  Click on "more pictures" under each hole report, as they really give a good example of the holes under construction and the methodologies employed.

I would enjoy hearing if others had the same impression that I got.  


grandwazo

Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2004, 11:08:34 AM »
Mike, if I may ask, what impression did you get?
Jeff

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2004, 11:08:50 AM »
Grandwazo:

I'm struck by your comment that a course was well maintained because it was "built properly the first time".

Can you elaborate on that theory?

Also, what is the Fazio "stamp"?
Tim Weiman

Mike_Cirba

Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2004, 11:18:06 AM »
grandwazo;

If I might, I'd prefer to defer providing my own opinion at this moment because I would like to hear what other's impressions are first.  I also wouldn't want to influence anyone either positively or negatively.

One of the reasons I suggested that others go to the pictures is because I believe they provide a really unique viewpoint that's rarely seen...that is, Fazio work "in progress".  


Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2004, 11:21:09 AM »
Mike, yes he did a renovation 2 years ago. The routing stayed the same but all else was changed dramatically. I was very impressed that he broke with the Houston school mode for lack of a better way to put it. He used dirt movement on a large scale to create interest and sightlines as oppossed to mounding. You have to really look around to realize the site has no topographical movement at all.

George Pazin

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Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2004, 11:23:53 AM »
I looked at the Fazio Project pictures and it seems a bit hard to draw much from them, other than there seems to be a good deal of emphasis on framing and visuals.

Can anyone with experience with the course comment on the changes?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike_Cirba

Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2004, 11:25:21 AM »
Tiger;

Thanks for the update.  I know that some people liked the original Jackrabbit course better than the more famous one at Champions before this renovation.  How would you compare the two now?

grandwazo

Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2004, 11:45:12 AM »
I'm certainly no expert, but in my limited experience and off the top of my head I've played both Nicklaus and Dye courses that because of certain design elements suffered from poor maintenance which affected both the playability of the course and the aesthetics.  

Off the top of my head Loxahatchee in Florida comes to mind as a course that has had to undergo a lot of changes simply because the original design was too hard to maintain and not well thought out and this was a course rated in the top 100 during it's first few years of existence.   Some of their problems relate solely to turf issues, but others relate to the endless mounding used to frame fairways and the bunkering used, #17 coming to mind, those bunkers have been redone at least twice if I remember correctly.  I also think that the 10th and 11th holes had issues regarding pine trees near green sites that affect the turf.  Both holes look great, but had problems because of routing.

I also think that Pete Dye who has done brilliant work also sometimes doesn't leave behind a course that is easily maintained.  To name just two, the course at Amelia Island and at the Marriott at Palm Springs in my experience on at least two different visits were poorly maintained and it seemed like the designs were both forced without any thought as to who was going to have to maintain them.  

On one hand I could blame financial problems at Amelia Island possibly affecting maintenance, but in the case of Loxahatchee, Nicklaus called this course his home course for a while and was very involved in day to day operations.  I am sure the maximum effort was made, but to this day they still seem to be having trouble getting it right.  

I think part of the job of an architect is to think about what happens to his work after he leaves and unless it's a private course whose owner has an inexhaustable supply of $, he should be thinking about whether or not the course can take care of itself to a certain degree.  

The move towards naturalism employed by Coore and Crenshaw and Doak may by defnition avoid these types of problems, but in Fazio's case, again in my limited experience, his designs seem to effortlessly avoid the issue altogether without sacrificing offering a test of your game and providing an enjoyable visual experience.  

I'm sure we've all played courses that have slopes in certain areas that are so steep that mowing them must be a dreaded experience each day for the crew, and others where the grass simply won't grow because the tree line wasn't properly accounted for.  I have yet to come across that on a Fazio course.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2004, 11:58:43 AM »
grandwazo;

Good points, as I've seen some very angular architecture by both Dye and Nicklaus that I would imagine create drainage and maintenance nightmares.  I can't comment on your particular examples, but I know what you mean.

I can't say I've seen the same from Fazio and I certainly can't fault him in this area.  

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2004, 12:12:31 PM »
Grandwazo:

Thanks for your response. While I haven't been to Laxahatchee, I always felt - based on pictures - that the mounding looked awful and could be a real pain to maintain.

As for Fazio and maintenance, my most insightful experience came at Sand Ridge where I spent considerable time on site during construction and enoyed getting to know John Zimmers (who has since moved on to Oakmont) and Jim Roney (ex Merion who is now the super).

Based on this experience, I would caution against using the word "effortlessly". Sand Ridge achieved a very high standard for maintenance. Believe me, it was the result of a lot of work and, of course, money.

FYI, regarding Waterville, the venue has never been my favorite and I didn't bother to run down there during my last trip to Ireland (December). But, feedback from Irish friends has been mildly positive, I would say. Not rave reviews, but no big complaints either.
Tim Weiman

grandwazo

Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2004, 12:19:03 PM »
I may not be the best one to follow, I loved Doonbeg as well.  But after the long ride down to the Ring of Kerry, teeing off just after the rain stopped, I found Waterville to be the epitome of what I expected golf in Ireland to be, ranking it behind RCD as #2 on my trip.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2004, 01:17:07 PM »
While at lunch, I thought about a maintenance issue with Fazio, so I guess I have to amend my statement to never seeing maintenance issues on a Tom Fazio "original design".

However, I find it very difficult to believe that the new, grass-faced, vertical walled bunkers that Fazio did at Merion are anything but a maintenance headache in every respect.  


grandwazo

Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2004, 01:37:00 PM »
really stupid question, but how were the bunker faces treated previously from a design aspect?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2004, 02:03:14 PM »
grandwazo;

Somehow, supposedly in an effort to "restore" them to their 1930 look and feel, the former "White Faces" of Merion ended up with steep, thickly sodded, bluegrass-banked faces, embellished with fussy little curved lines trying to emulate what had been there previously.  ::)

Previously, the bunkers had been sand flashed to the top lips, which were ragged, weathered, and worn in a beautifully natural and irregular fashion.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2004, 02:27:13 PM »
Mike Cirba,
Off the top of your head, do you know of any before and after pictures of the work at Merion?  Books, etc.?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mike_Cirba

Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2004, 02:30:01 PM »
A.G. Crockett;

I only know of the one's I own, taken the year before the work and the year the work was completed.  

Many months ago some were posted here courtesy of some of the fellows who have webspace.  I doubt they're still available, but you might try the search feature.  

I also know this issue has been hashed over and over in here ad infinitum, so I really don't want to get drawn into it again.  I suggest we get back to the discussion of Waterville if everyone agrees.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2004, 02:31:31 PM by Mike_Cirba »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2004, 02:38:09 PM »
Absolutely, and thanks.  I'll search around.
agc
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Waterville - Fazio
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2004, 02:44:36 PM »
Mike, I never played the original Jack Rabbit. However, I get the feeling from the Members that both courses are deemed to be a great courses where that was not the feeling before. I still like Cypress better for it is to me a big golf course that is full of long strong par 4's that beat you down over the round like Spyglass does. It was wet and cold but it was good drive then 3 wood at least 5 times Saturday. And if it was not good drive, 3 wood then it was a 4 iron to 5 wood. One of our own said it reminded him of Firestone CC. I did not find Jack Rabbit to be as bruising. It was one interesting hole after another and fun. There was a fair amount of strategy for a Fazio course. The par 5's are the weakness of both courses to me. Both are courses that would be better as par 70.