Hardest course you have played

« **Reply #50 on:** January 20, 2004, 10:54:26 AM »

Hardest Championship course I have ever played is a toss-up between.....

Bethpage Black
&
Carnoustie

Jeff F.

« **Reply #51 on:** January 20, 2004, 11:11:40 AM »

I have only played the "Nasty" once, but after I hooked my first two drives OB, I played the next 8 in 2 under. After a horrible hot dog at the turn, I bogied 10 and 11, parred 12-15, and finished bogey, bogey, bogey for a 79. I have played Oakmont numerous times and have yet to break 80.

« **Reply #52 on:** January 20, 2004, 11:24:59 AM »

Bill,

Yes, weather and setup primarily. Less often, turf conditions (at times too wet as opposed to too firm, though firm, windy conditions along with high rough and an abundance of hazards may actually lead to higher scores).

Shivas,

The Kepler was/is indeed in April. You probably weren't born yet the year that I was thinking about, so you were not among those whom I was watching. With a 30+ mph wind, fairly cold, and the course as hard as a rock, holes like the par 3 #8 over water were nearly unplayable. That day, in the mid 1970s, Scarlet was about the hardest course in the world.

Huck,

I think that Carnoustie is world-class. It is very difficult, and I can only imagine what it must be like when the wind really blows. I am not sure that I would want a steady diet of it, but it seemed to me to be a great place to develop a game. What they did to the setup for the Open, in my opinion, was a real injustice.

This is off topic, but I thought that Vander Weighe (sp- the very nice French pro) played a reasonable second shot to 18 and got a very, very unlucky bounce. As nervous as he probably was, and after making the mistake off the tee and being the beneficiary of divine intervention, hitting the ball as hard as he could and clearing all the hazards made some sense to me. I could see him playing back to the fairway, hitting it too soft or hard and end up in the rough, and from there it is just a potluck.

Golf can just be a very cruel game which, within a 15 minute span, can take some of the best from euphoria to inescapable depression. I still remember watching Ed Sneed lose three strokes and his insurmountable lead at the Masters on the greens at the final holes. If he hits an imperfection on one green out of three which directs his putt towards the center of the hole as opposed to away from it, who knows where his career might have gone? If JVW's second shot hit somebody on the bleachers, or just bounced any way but backwards, where would he be today? I am not a big Dan Jenkins fan, but he probably has the game pegged about right.

« **Reply #53 on:** January 20, 2004, 11:29:05 AM »

Lou:

Concur 100% re Carnoustie - I really gained a LOT of appreciation for it last summer, as a golf course more than a torture test. It is world-class in all respects and not "just a bitch" as I thought before.

And right on also re JDV - 1/4 inch either side on his 2nd shot and he's a former Open champion today. But such is the nature of the game... and if anything he might have ended up better off. David Feherty wrote a great article about exactly this - wish I could find it - it's one of the many in his newer book.

TH

« **Reply #54 on:** January 20, 2004, 01:07:56 PM »

Quote from: Lou_Duran on January 20, 2004, 10:24:10 AM

All in Texas: Horseshoe Bay- Ram Rock, Waterwood Natl., Austin CC.

Agree with Ram Rock. My claim to fame is I parred #2 (had to sink a 15 footer)

« **Reply #55 on:** January 20, 2004, 01:44:29 PM »

Well, I started to type PGA West Stadium course, but upon thinking about it a bit I guess that's not really true. It is a very hard golf course with some ridiculous hazards (as you all know) but it is more visually intimidating than anything else. There is actually pretty wide fairways and big greens. I also played Riviera the week after the Senior US Open there a few years ago and the rough was too much for my game. I couldn't imagine playing it in regular US Open conditions. I have also play the new Torrey South, but not from the back tees (they aren't even put out there on a normal day to day basis) or with high rough.

The course that has kicked my rear end the worst though (the two times I've played it) was Spyglass Hill. For some reason I just can't get it around that track to save my life. The last time I played there it was dark and dank (this was in August) and the ball was going no where. It definately rates as the hardest golf course I have ever played.

Another course which I think is underated is Pine Needles. The day I played there was very windy and the greens were a bit dryed out! Whooow, talk about hard! Try keeping an approach shot (or even a chip) on a hard Don Ross green! That was one of those days where I didn't lose a ball, but ended up scratching my head about my high score!

« **Reply #56 on:** January 20, 2004, 02:06:07 PM »

Chuck - I find no shame in including each of PGA West Stadium and Spyglass in this and really find each of those also to be harder than Carnoustie, assuming equal weather... PGA West is the most penal course on the planet - intentionally so - and you hit on why Spyglass plays so tough - it is way longer than the yardage and on top of that, the greens ain't easy....

Both of those fall in the "stone bitch" category for sure!

TH

« **Reply #57 on:** January 20, 2004, 02:29:18 PM »

The Ocean Course, hands down. But there are so many, many places discussed on this board that I haven't been. Keep writing and taking pictures, boys!

« **Reply #58 on:** January 20, 2004, 03:23:19 PM »

Bethpage Black from the tips, absolutely brutal if your spraying the driver.

« **Reply #59 on:** January 20, 2004, 03:48:22 PM »

Who sprays their driver in this day and age of high tech equipment and perfect golf balls?

« **Reply #60 on:** January 20, 2004, 03:58:46 PM »

Quote

and you hit on why Spyglass plays so tough - it is way longer than the yardage and on top of that, the greens ain't easy....

I learned it doesn't really matter which tee box you play from, it's like you said, sneaky long and the greens ain't easy. But in my opinion, Spyglass falls into a different type category. I don't think it's extremely hard but it's a type of course that is hard to shoot a good number on. Easy to shoot low to mid 80's, hard to break 80.

« **Reply #61 on:** January 20, 2004, 04:01:04 PM »

The hardest course I have ever played, under the conditions, is Olympic during the US Amateur in 1981. Narrow fairways canted away from the doglegs to 5-6" rough no to mention the tree trouble if one was really off line and greens stimping at 11+. No water, almost no OB, one fairway bunker, yet the highest qualifying score in US Am history up to that point. Very difficult to get more than about 240-250 off the tee.

Went back twelve years later, same experience. A 6600 yard brute.

« **Reply #62 on:** January 20, 2004, 04:40:16 PM »

Carnoustie, far and away the hardest when the wind exceeds 20 mph (in any dirction). Royal County Down under the same circumstances. Oakmont, Bethpage, Pinehurst # and Shinnecock weigh heavily in the US.

Number 2, when the conditions are hard and fast and there is a little wind is about as tough as it gets.

« **Reply #63 on:** January 20, 2004, 04:44:08 PM »

I 2nd the Fay response. I think Carnoustie wins hands down.

« **Reply #64 on:** January 20, 2004, 09:12:45 PM »

For what I've played, The Ocean Course by a mile. The first time I played, I hit my tee shot on #2 and had absolutley no idea where to go next. How far was the hazard? The green is supposed to be where? At that time the wind wasn't even up. By the turn for home at 14, it was a stiffiling 30 mph and a hell of a trudge home.

The other I found brutal was the TPC-Stadium. Greens we're lightning fast and more than any other place I found myself very intimidated on the tee box. Miss in the wrong spot and your screwed!!

« **Reply #65 on:** January 20, 2004, 09:34:17 PM »

Oak Tree GC in Edmond ,OK, from the tips into SE winds.. Dyeabolical

Maybe the Concord's Monster, but then I was 11 years old

« **Reply #66 on:** January 21, 2004, 08:46:02 AM »

I think I'd have to say The Ocean Course as well, although I've seen it on fairly calm days and it can be had quite resonably.

Te 14th there has ot be one of the toughest par 3's - you ust played 9 or 10 holes all in the same direction and now you do an about face and have to hit something around 180 to a pedestal green with the wind exactly opposite of what you're used to. Always a tough proposition.

« **Reply #67 on:** January 21, 2004, 10:29:28 AM »

I played Kiawah about 10 or 12 years ago in February with a 20-30 mph wind. I was scratch at the time and played my tail off to shoot 82. The holes into the wind were easier to me than the holes downwind that day.

I am going to try and get back sometime this summer. I was there for the Ryder Cup and loved the course.

« **Reply #68 on:** January 21, 2004, 10:35:53 AM »

Agree with Steve Lang; Oak Tree Men's Club from the back tees in those 13mph "average" daily wind speeds.

2nd place to University of New Mexico South Course, when it was playing frim and fast in the early 70's.

« **Reply #69 on:** January 21, 2004, 11:01:24 AM »

Quote from: Brock Peyer on January 21, 2004, 10:29:28 AM

I played Kiawah about 10 or 12 years ago in February with a 20-30 mph wind. I was scratch at the time and played my tail off to shoot 82. The holes into the wind were easier to me than the holes downwind that day.

I am going to try and get back sometime this summer. I was there for the Ryder Cup and loved the course.

It's a different course. Since then, Pete Dye has been back three times (1997, 2002 and 2003) to make renovations. Ran was here this weekend and played it. He took two rolls of film and will be updating GCA's course review once he gets back from a business trip... Stay tuned!

« **Reply #70 on:** January 21, 2004, 11:09:38 AM »

I'm going with Royal Troon in high wind with thick rough. it was a bear out and back.

I never played Karsten Creek but judging by the scores of last year's NCAA championships, it must be extreme.

« **Reply #71 on:** January 21, 2004, 11:48:12 AM »

Mike & Ran - dd you get a chance to play The River Course or Cassique - I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on both.

« **Reply #72 on:** January 21, 2004, 12:47:49 PM »

I work at the resort so I've played them a few times. I don't believe Ran has ever played them. If you want feedback, both the resort and Kiawah's real estate company (which owns Cassique and The River Course) hosted Golfweek's "Rater's Cup" a couple of years ago and quite a few of the posters here are on that panel and had a chance to play both.

« **Reply #73 on:** January 21, 2004, 03:02:08 PM »

I was just curious to hear what other people had to say. I've played both dozens of times and realy enjoy both courses. A couple holes could use a tweak or two, but overall, they're blast to play.

« **Reply #74 on:** January 21, 2004, 03:36:59 PM »

I thought Cassique was a blast. The River Course is a very good Fazio, as well. I preferred Cassique of the two, but my friend Lou Duran, as usual, has it backwards.

To the original point, perhaps the toughest course I ever played that no one has heard of was Shore Gate in NJ, from the tips.

Horrible architecture combined with brutal difficulty. As much fun as getting electroshock therapy.

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