[Brian Phillips]

I apologise if this has come up before but I was wondering what some of you guys know about this course. Quote from the USGA calender..

'The original 9-hole Seaside course at Sea Island Golf Club was laid out in 1928 by two of the lesser known master of the 'Golden Age' C.H. Alison and H.S. Colt. A dunes laden layout with crowned, sloping greens, it has challenging tidal marshes that come into play as the course skirts St. Simons' intracoastal waterway.'

Other quick fact..

More than one million cubic yards of dirt were dredged from the tidal marshes for construction of the original 9 hole course.

...two lesser known masters of the golden age...that makes my blood boil....Colt ...lesser known...

Do you know any facts about the course and the design?

Cheers

Brian

[Keith Williams]

Brian,

I don't know as much about Sea Island as some on this site, but here is what I do know.

Originally Sea Island Golf Club was composed of four nines, one of them being the Seaside nine (the others I think were Retreat, Plantation and Marshside).

Bobby Jones once called the Seaside nine, "the finest nine holes in all of golf" or something to that effect.

The Seaside course is now an eighteen hole course bearing the stamp of one Tom Fazio (Seaside and another nine were combined and redesigned by Fazio; the two other nines were combined and redesigned by Rees Jones making the Plantation Course; and the St. Simons Island Club from across the street was brought into the mix with a DLIII redesign and renamed the Retreat Course)

I believe the routing of the original Seaside nine is still intact, but the individual holes have been altered by Fazio.

The course was featured by Scott Burroughs as a "during construction" AOTD.

Hope this might help you out.

Keith.

[Bill Gayne]

Brian,

I was at Sea Island over the New Years Holiday and here's what I can tell you relative to the golf experience and the history.

The Golf Lodge is decorated with many historical pictures of the construction of the golf course and the early days. At the entrance to the bar is a Colt & Allison drawing of the original Seaside nine. The trophy room is full of stuff from the twenties and thirties. If you didn't know about the Fazio and Rees Jones work you would expect a classic design. I saw very little in the Golf Lodge which celebrates the work of Jones and Fazio.

However, once you leave the Lodge and go to play it is a completely modern resort experience. If the comments in the calendar made your blood boil this juxtaposition would probably do the same. It probably has the best practice/teaching area that I have ever seen. The conditioing of the courses are outstanding and extremly pleasing to the eye. The sand is of the blinding white variety. (Although if you walk on the beach the sand is naturally very white.) Caddies are available but most everybody plays with cart. Sea Island does the modern resort golf experience as good as any resort in the country. Green fees on Seaside $185 and plantation $125.

It's not a classic golf architecture experience from the golden age but it is a great resort. If you're thinking about going, then go to Sea Island to enjoy the vacation.

(As an aside the original Cloister was closed in December and is being reconstructed. The architect of the building was Addison Mizner and they are removing the key features of the building for inclusion in the new Cloister.)

[Brian Phillips]

Billg,

Resort style golf doesn't make my blood boil, calling Colt and Allison the lesser known masters of the golden age annoys me.

So, are you saying that the original golf course has gone?

If the sand on the beach is similar to that of the bunkers then that is a form of minimalism in my eyes...

So did you enjoy the golf?

If the original routing is the same or has been kept how did you feel it played?

Thanks.

Brian

[Brian_Gracely]

Brian,

Don't let the USGA's comments about Colt and Allison get you too upset.  It is the USGA.  You rarely hear mention of Harry Vardon in the same breath as Hagen or Jones or Hogan or Nicklaus in the states, but he was as dominant in his time as anyone world-wide.  

[TEPaul]

I remember the Sea Island golf course from the old days back in the 1950s. I don't remember the golf architecture in detail obviously but I remember the aura of it. And I remember the old Cloisters hotel from that era too. Both the golf course and the hotel were simply lovely, every bit that wonderful old Georgia charm. The golf course was natural and lovely just as some of those on this board might imagine it would've been.

Completely redesigning the course and redoing the hotel makes basically no sense to me other than to say I do understand that both have always been commercial ventures, and PT Barnum was probably right when he said;

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."

It's pretty hard to recreate the charm the Cloisters hotel and the Sea Island golf course used to have---they should have understood that better and basically left it with that same aura of a bygone era.

[Carlyle Rood]

http://www.golfarch.com/Seaside/

Brian,

Above is a link to just a few holes on the Seaside course at Sea Island.  The original Colt & Alison nine are the last nine holes on the current Seaside course.  (Some of the photos are simply of the landscaping and not the course.)

I'll post some comments later this evening when I'm in Athens.

Carlyle

[Bill Gayne]

Brian,

I enjoyed the golf. As far as comparing what was there before Rees and Fazio, the last time I played golf at Sea Island was about twelve years ago. At that time there were three nines which if I rember right were done by Colt (Seaside), Joe Lee (Plantation), and Dick Wilson (Retreat). So it was always a mixed 18 to begin with. It was a very quaint old south beach resort.

As mentioned before the routing from the original Seaside Course is largely intact. From my memory (it has been twelve years) what's changed the most on the original Seaside nine is what lies on the side of the fairways. The waste areas have been expanded and the underbrush cleaned out.

The growth in golf at Sea Island mirrors the growth of Sea Island overall. The number of "cottages" at Sea Island has probably doubled in the last ten years. The Ocean Forrest golf club/housing is mostly complete. Sea Island is a resort that draws families for generations. One person told me that the reason for the golf makeovers was that Sea Island needed to keep up with newer resorts in South Carolina and Florida and that the old golf was "tired."

The need to rebuild the Cloister were similar to the reasons that the Williamsburg Inn needed to be redone. The rooms were to small, the facility was not ADA compliant, asbestos, new technology requirements, etc.

Despite the changes and growth, Sea Island is still a charming old south resort.

[LKoonce]

My understanding is that the original Hotel at the Cloister is being destroyed, with a entirely new building replacing it, so I think "redesign" is an understatement.  As someone who's vactioned at The Cloister a few times, I think it's too early to tell whether it will be true to the original, or be more akin to The Venetian hotel attempting to "capture the spirit" of Venice in Las Vegas.

As to the changes to the golf course, I personally liked the 4 nine-hole courses much better before Fazio's and Jones' work.  I really enjoyed being able to combine any of the 9-holes into an 18-hole round, although I heard that many golfers complained about that.  I wish I could give a more detailed review of the changes, but others have already done so above and my memory of the old design is not clear enough at this point in time.

An interesting comparison on The Cloister's website between the design philosophy behind the changes to both the hotel and golf courses (the inernal contradictions in each are amazing):

The golf:

"Seventy years of history enrich this soil that crosses generations of golf greats: Bobby Jones, Sam Snead, Davis Love III. It began as the Seaside Nine, built by Colt & Alison in the 1920s. In 1930, Robert Tyre "Bobby" Jones called it 'one of the best nine holes I've ever seen.' Now it's been recreated as the new 18-hole Seaside Course, skillfully achieved by architect Tom Fazio. His vision: honor the tradition and integrity of the original design, yet carve a completely original, challenging and contemporary layout.'

The hotel:

"Just as if the original architect, Addison Mizner, was designing it himself, the new Cloister Hotel will feel very much like the hotel we all know today.  Although it will host more spacious rooms, and newer and better amenities it will feel very intimate, much like someone's grand private residence. With butler service and a beautiful new Spa, the new Cloister Hotel will sit along the Black Banks River.  And the Spanish Lounge, built in 1928 as part of the original tiny inn, will be lovingly reconstructed piece by piece so that we may enjoy its beauty for generations to come."

[SPDB]

Carlyle,
Are the flagsticks wicker baskets a la Merion?

[paul cowley]

....SPDB....yea man , sure enuff.........[ or is it yeo man ? ]

can't know it................

[T_MacWood]

An unfortunate tragedy. This was one of Alison's greatest American accomplishments....its a shame it was felt necessary to plow it up. I suspect if the ASGCA or the USGA was involved in identifying significant/historical architectural works...this could have been avoided.

[BCrosby]

Most of the Alison was gone by the late 50's. It was not something that was lost in the recent round of changes. I don't think Colt was ever involved in the project.

I also don't think much of Alison's routing is left. The Alison drawings on the walls at the Lodge seem to indicate major changes to his lay-out. But again, the destruction of the Alison course was completed by the 50's.

Don't go the Sea Island for classical golf courses. Go for the food, the beach, the bingo, beautiful scenery. And modern American resort golf, if that is your cup of tea. It is also very pricey.

Brian -

The off hand comment about Colt in the Sea Island brochure is a pretty accurate reflection of Americn appreciation of Colt. His work is not well known here. I hope you and others will change that.

Bob  

[T_MacWood]

Is the Alison plan in the clubhouse 9 or 18?

How was his design altered in the 1950's?

[BCrosby]

Tom -

As I recall the drawings are for 9 holes. With a drink in one hand and my family pulling at the other to go to the Beach Club, I tried in that brief interval to match the drawings with the current course. It seemed to me that there were major differences; more than changes to green complexes or fairway bunkering.

Someone with more time and a better-behaved family may come to a different conclusion. I'd love to hear from them.

I don't know who did what in the 50's. I know Dick Wilson worked at Sea Island. (the Pantation 9?) The omni-present RTJ redid the old Seaside 9 in the 50's. (He built massive, raised scallop shell bunkers on the 5th hole, almost exact duplicates of bunkers he built at about the same time at Ponte Vedra on nos. 3 and 17. Fazio removed the ones at Sea Island. The ones at PV are still there.) He may have worked on other 9's there too. Don't know.

A minor correction. I believe Joe Lee did the original Marshside 9, now incorporatad into what is called the Seaside 18. Fazio redid both the old Marshside 9 and the old Seaside 9.

Bob



 

[Carlyle Rood]

An unfortunate tragedy. This was one of Alison's greatest American accomplishments....its a shame it was felt necessary to plow it up. I suspect if the ASGCA or the USGA was involved in identifying significant/historical architectural works...this could have been avoided.

I began playing golf at Sea Island G.C. in 1983.  I have been a regular visitor since then.

The redesign should probably be described more accurately as a restoration.  Fazio began by removing some unfortunate and substantial pine plantings (and encroachment) that had accumulated over the years.  He re-established coastal vegetation and allowed the wind to circulate throughout the property once again.  

The Colt/Alison (Seaside nine) design had been in decline for many years.  The mismanagement of the trees, in particular, made the course indistinguishable from a course you might find in Atlanta.  Not surprisingly, since completion of Fazio's work, native wildlife is returning to the site exponentially.

The character of the "new" Seaside nine is entirely consistent with the original strategy, routing, and design.  (Some routing liberties were taken with the other nine to create a cohesive eighteen.)

I would characterize Fazio's work as an improvement to the previous facility.

C

P.S. The four nines at Sea Island were originally called Seaside, Marshside, Plantation, and Retreat.  The Davis Love III redesign of the "Retreat" course is actually of the former St. Simons Island G.C. nearby.

[Carlyle Rood]

Carlyle,
Are the flagsticks wicker baskets a la Merion?

Yes--red wicker baskets on an alternately black and white pin.

[T_MacWood]

Restoration?

From what I understand the original Sea Island Links was Alison's new Seaside nine added to Alison's remodeled Travis Plantation nine. Are today's Seaside and Plantation part of the same 18 golf course? If they are together....a number of the old holes were redesigned by Fazio.

Did Alison's golf course have the sandy waste areas or stylized bunkers found on the current Seaside golf course?

[Keith Williams]

I also was under the impression that Fazio's work done at Sea Island was considered redesign, not restoration.  

I don't have any older photographs of the course, but in looking around on the sea island website I found an older photo on the slideshow titled "sea island story" that might be a little helpful.  You can find the slideshow at www.seaisland.com under "sea island story"

Keith.

P.S. The sea island website also claims that the goal of the Fazio work was to, "honor the tradition and integrity of the original design, yet carve a completely original, challenging and contemporary layout..."  I will refrain from commenting on whether I view that as aspiring toward restoration versus redesign  

[John_Cullum]

Was it considered a tragedy when Allison redesigned Travis' work? A true conundrum for those purists who reside at GCA.com.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

I was wondering I heard another course is underway on the island?  I am aware that ocean forrest may be redoing some greens??  I am curious about the new courses in planning and the designers???

[Carlyle Rood]

I also was under the impression that Fazio's work done at Sea Island was considered redesign, not restoration.  

Sea Island would not describe the work as a restoration and neither would Fazio.  Each would characterize the work as a redesign.

I would not.  I would characterize it as a restoration because the work preserved the routing, maintained the original strategy, and restored the original surroundings (primarily through the removal of trees that had encroached on the property over the last 70+ years).  Of course, the new version now utilizes modern irrigation and construction practices; therefore, the course is healthier than ever.  For these reasons, that's why I stated that the work "SHOULD be more accurately described as a restoration."

The new Seaside course is a composite of the original Seaside and Marshside nines.  The new Plantation course is a composite of the former Plantation and Retreat nines.  The new Retreat course is the former St. Simons Island Club.

I am referring to the original Colt/Alison designed Seaside NINE holes.


C

[T_MacWood]

Sarge
I take it you don't consider yourself a purist....what does that make you....an impurist?

Not a conundrum. The Travis nine was less than two years old when Alison created a championship 18. How old was the course when Fazio got hold of it?

The Sea Island eighteen was considered one of the great courses in the US....its reputation carried over decades. I'm not certain how good Travis's nine was...OB Keeler's said it was solid -- undulating greens and typical mounding -- but obviously not a championship 18 like the Alison design. Did the Travis nine have grass or sand greens?

According to Keeler, Alison retained several of Travis's mounds as a tribute to the Old Man.

[Neil Regan]

From the Plantation Nine, c 1926, holes #8 and #9 became holes #1 and #9 on Marshside, by Joe Lee c1971. Two new holes were added to Plantation then as #5 and #6. They remain.

Marshside is now Seaside Front Nine.The new work by Tom Fazio did this to Marshside:
hole #1 (Travis Plantation #8): the green is gone, a totally new green and a much longer hole are there now.
holes #4 and #5 are combined into hole #4.
a new hole #6, a par 3 from near the old tee for seaside #6
a new hole #7, a par 5 roughly on the same route as old #7
a new green for #8, and major fairway work
hole #9 (Travis Plantation #9): the green is now tripled in size.

On Seaside, hole #5 is gone. A new hole (#14) traverses the same land, but stays left and continues out to the edge of the marsh.
Hole #6 (now #15) is changed. The tee is from the old #5 green, the cross bunker is more on a fairway turn, the green is new.

Most of the greens on Seaside have doubled or maybe even tripled in size, and feed into loads of short-grass chipping areas.

[John_Cullum]

Mr. MacWood:

I may well be an impurist. I do not consider myself a purist. Do you so consider yourself?

I never saw Travis' work, nor did I ever see Allison's work. But I have seen Fazio's work at Sea Island, and I consider it excellent.

I am not of the opinion that every work of the golden age masters is incapable of being improved. Many on this site seem to be infected with that condition I refer to as purism.

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